WI Manfried Hohenstaufen defeats Charles of Anjou

So what if Manfried kill Charles and ends his invasion of Sicily. With Manfried alive and still in a position of power could he help prop up Conraddin and perhaps make a play for the Imperial throne or has the luck of the hoenstaufens run out by this point and how will this also effect the ERE and Michael VII who we know had an annoying time dealing with Charles
 
As excommunicated, his claim on Sicily would be still really fragile. Papacy would still look for candidates, and Capetians aren't going to forgive the death of Charles d'Anjou critically in a time where opponents were generally inprisoned and ransomed (yes it happened to Manfried OTL, but again being excommunicated, suspected of several charges didn't helped much, and Charles didn't enjoyed much support himself after Conrad V's death)

Conrad V is still alive, and would represent a possible banner for opponents to Manfred : Papacy, Empire, possibly Capetians...I'm not sure it would have looked good for him.

Consequences for Byzantium are blurry at best : they would probably still loose control of western Balkanic coast, either to Italians or to local princes.
 
As excommunicated, his claim on Sicily would be still really fragile. Papacy would still look for candidates, and Capetians aren't going to forgive the death of Charles d'Anjou critically in a time where opponents were generally inprisoned and ransomed (yes it happened to Manfried OTL, but again being excommunicated, suspected of several charges didn't helped much, and Charles didn't enjoyed much support himself after Conrad V's death)

Conrad V is still alive, and would represent a possible banner for opponents to Manfred : Papacy, Empire, possibly Capetians...I'm not sure it would have looked good for him.

Consequences for Byzantium are blurry at best : they would probably still loose control of western Balkanic coast, either to Italians or to local princes.
on the first part pretty much all the hohenstaufens were excommuniated at one point or the other and papal control wasnt as strong in Germany. As for Conrad I was thinking Manfried throws his upport behind onrad and acts as regent.
True Capetians would be a threat but im sure that many of the german princes disliked the French and so I was thinking could Manfried be able to rally the german princes under Conraddins banner?
 
on the first part pretty much all the hohenstaufens were excommuniated at one point or the other and papal control wasnt as strong in Germany.

There's a huge difference between an excommunicated king that already established his authority, and a excommunicated claimant among other that aren't (Conrad V, Louis IX if he claims his brother title)

As for Conrad I was thinking Manfried throws his upport behind Conrad and acts as regent.
Given the reputation of Manfried as murderer of Conrad IV, the fact he tried to pass Conrad V as death already, trusting him regency would be...hazardous at best, sucidial more likely.

True Capetians would be a threat but im sure that many of the german princes disliked the French
There's no such thing as "German Princes" as one political entity : some were opposing Capetians (rather than "French", nationalism isn't established yet), other supported them along their interest, and other were more or less benevolently neutral (remember that Louis IX is then the more powerful sovereign of western Christianity, and beneficy from a really good reputation and prestige).

Furthermore, HRE was quite troubled then : no Emperor up to 1275, kings and anti-kings popping around...I'm not sure you would have an unified and efficient answer there critically when the Capetian king refrained to launch campaigns against HRE, being more or less neutral then within Pontifical/Imperial conflicts.
In fact, I could see Louis IX trying to support Conrad V's claims if sort of an alliance is made.

If the a king or anti-king try to support Manfried for...some reason, in their troubled situation, it would be hazardous as well.
For Manfried rallying HRE, it's a big no : he doesn't have legitimacy, prestige or ressources for doing so.
 
There's a huge difference between an excommunicated king that already established his authority, and a excommunicated claimant among other that aren't (Conrad V, Louis IX if he claims his brother title)


Given the reputation of Manfried as murderer of Conrad IV, the fact he tried to pass Conrad V as death already, trusting him regency would be...hazardous at best, sucidial more likely.


There's no such thing as "German Princes" as one political entity : some were opposing Capetians (rather than "French", nationalism isn't established yet), other supported them along their interest, and other were more or less benevolently neutral (remember that Louis IX is then the more powerful sovereign of western Christianity, and beneficy from a really good reputation and prestige).

Furthermore, HRE was quite troubled then : no Emperor up to 1275, kings and anti-kings popping around...I'm not sure you would have an unified and efficient answer there critically when the Capetian king refrained to launch campaigns against HRE, being more or less neutral then within Pontifical/Imperial conflicts.
In fact, I could see Louis IX trying to support Conrad V's claims if sort of an alliance is made.

If the a king or anti-king try to support Manfried for...some reason, in their troubled situation, it would be hazardous as well.
For Manfried rallying HRE, it's a big no : he doesn't have legitimacy, prestige or ressources for doing so.

okay so in this situation do you think the hohenstaufens have any chane of retaining the HRE?
 
okay so in this situation do you think the hohenstaufens have any chane of retaining the HRE?

Well, there's some chances, but windows of opportunity would be really limited, and with bad consequences for Staufer authority.

First, HRE is dominated by the anti-kings.
Assuming the PoD doesn't butterfly William I's death, the whole territory would be really troubled and without a clear "head" (Either Alfonso X or Richard of Cornwall can't impose their authority). German princes would have tested to more freedom, and wouldn't be too much quick to submit to Staufer.
In order to be crowned emperor, Conrad would have to make several concessions, eventually weakening his authority.

If William I doesn't die, it's even more clear : it's niet.

Then he would need support. It would mean submit to papacy, something that would make Canossa looks not that bad in comparison. Welf victory seem granted, at least at middle term.

Conrad V taking back Sicily would probably end with Staufer focusing on southern Italy rather than Germany (except for Swabia of course).
Submitting to pontifical demends, with Capetians managing reconciliation, would be less damagable if he stays "only" king of Sicily.
 
Top