WI: Mammoths survive into historic times?

[DominusNovus]

Lets just cut to the chase: what if Europe/Siberia had its own native elephant-like species that was available to be tamed and used for all the uses elephants were/are used for in those parts of the world in which they live. Mostly prestigious war animals, as a spectacle, or a few isolated tasks requiring loads of brute force. We'll assume that the species in question has evolved to keep pace with the temperatures, so likely less wooly than the classic mammoth image in our head.

I imagine the biggest change would be the use of war mammoths in fashion similar to war elephants, so expect Celtic and Germanic peoples to usually have a few mammoths among their larger armies. This might make them more durable against Mediterranean civilizations, or it might make them more appealing conquests - they'd likely be somewhat wealthier with an additional resources like mammoths, who also are likely to deforest the land to a marginal degree, which also makes them a bit more easy to conquer.

 

[Vinization]

Lets just cut to the chase: what if Europe/Siberia had its own native elephant-like species that was available to be tamed and used for all the uses elephants were/are used for in those parts of the world in which they live. Mostly prestigious war animals, as a spectacle, or a few isolated tasks requiring loads of brute force. We'll assume that the species in question has evolved to keep pace with the temperatures, so likely less wooly than the classic mammoth image in our head.

I imagine the biggest change would be the use of war mammoths in fashion similar to war elephants, so expect Celtic and Germanic peoples to usually have a few mammoths among their larger armies. This might make them more durable against Mediterranean civilizations, or it might make them more appealing conquests - they'd likely be somewhat wealthier with an additional resources like mammoths, who also are likely to deforest the land to a marginal degree, which also makes them a bit more easy to conquer.

Elephants in general are living bulldozers, so perhaps the steppes in which peoples like the Mongols, Jurchens, Yuezhi, Xiongnu among so many others rose up could be quite a bit larger, probably taking areas that are occupied by the tundra today. Plus, they could have a lot of additional effects: could the muskox survive in Siberia, considering the last ones died around 2.000 years ago in the Taymyr peninsula? What about bison and horses? Hell, with a big enough POD, we could even have lions and hyenas still prowling about in large areas of Siberia, since the prey animals they depended on would still be around.

 

[Vinization]

Here's an idea of what I'm talking about.

EDIT: A tundra that looks more like the Serengeti would be really cool.

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

In point of fact, they did survive into historical times, no? My understanding is that mammoths were still alive on Wrangel Island at the time that the Great Pyramid was being built.

 

[Vinization]

In point of fact, they did survive into historical times, no? My understanding is that mammoths were still alive on Wrangel Island at the time that the Great Pyramid was being built.

They did, but they were so heavily inbred and confined to a small area that they would probably all die out with the smallest disturbance. Which they probably did.

 

[Lalli]

Mammoths probably would are as war animals much more impractical than horses. There surely would be same problems as with elephants. Slow to breed, grow up very slowly and need tons of food. So even if they would survive to historic eras local natives probably just would eat them.

 

[Vinization]

Mammoths probably would are as war animals much more impractical than horses. There surely would be same problems as with elephants. Slow to breed, grow up very slowly and need tons of food. So even if they would survive to historic eras local natives probably just would eat them.

They would also be an excellent source of ivory, which could bring along all sorts of other effects. Seriously, their tusks could be four meters long for the largest males.

 

[Mort the Reaper]

They would also be an excellent source of ivory, which could bring along all sorts of other effects. Seriously, their tusks could be four meters long for the largest males.

One of those "other effects" might be the survival of the Syrian elephant, depending on how far west and south mammoth ranges extend.

 

[Vinization]

One of those "other effects" might be the survival of the Syrian elephant, depending on how far west and south mammoth ranges extend.

I could see the mammoths ranging from Siberia all the way to Ukraine and Crimea at most, because of the steppe terrain and vegetation. They might stay on the other side of the Urals, though.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Syrian elephant still went extinct at a later date, thanks to habitat destruction. Their range seems to have been pretty limited.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

Mammoths probably would add more to the Arctic and Subarctic peoples of Siberia, especially economic-wise (ivory!), the bigger and mammothful steppe must have some great consequences out there but idk sufficiently to say about it. We'll see native siberian peoples surviving more thoroughly and longer than IOTL, where we had many turco-mongols going north.

It'll also affect Northern Europe in many ways, ivory will probably kickstart a trend of urbanization somewhere sometime because of the profits of selling ivory-based products down south. Depending on the range of the mammoth, it can actually simply clean out a lot of the northern forests, and probably ITTL Finnic Expansion will be full of mammoths going in with them.

 

[jatt_scythian]

This is related to my thread of the Eastern European plain (well in this case steppe) extending more east and north. Would be coo if the ANS people surivved and thrived due to mammoths.

 

[PleistoceneWanderer]

Also, many species alive today once occurred far to the south/west of their current locations. Polar bears and reindeer once lived as south as Iberia.

 

[Arkenfolm]

While ivory and mammoth meat are both very helpful to people living in the area where mammoths thrive, are mammoths necessarily tameable? The African elephants, aside from the dwarf elephants, are not considered tameable (or not without extreme difficulty--the bush elephant in particular was considered hopelessly untameable by ancient standards), while the Asian elephants are considered more amenable. That would impact a lot of the total effects of mammoth survival.

 

[Byzantion]

Lets just cut to the chase: what if Europe/Siberia had its own native elephant-like species that was available to be tamed and used for all the uses elephants were/are used for in those parts of the world in which they live. Mostly prestigious war animals, as a spectacle, or a few isolated tasks requiring loads of brute force. We'll assume that the species in question has evolved to keep pace with the temperatures, so likely less wooly than the classic mammoth image in our head.

I imagine the biggest change would be the use of war mammoths in fashion similar to war elephants, so expect Celtic and Germanic peoples to usually have a few mammoths among their larger armies. This might make them more durable against Mediterranean civilizations, or it might make them more appealing conquests - they'd likely be somewhat wealthier with an additional resources like mammoths, who also are likely to deforest the land to a marginal degree, which also makes them a bit more easy to conquer.

May e we could have the American
Mastodon also survive to some extent. Allegedly they partly survived into Holocene.

 

[pompejus]

are mammoths necessarily tameable? The African elephants, aside from the dwarf elephants, are not considered tameable (or not without extreme difficulty--the bush elephant in particular was considered hopelessly untameable by ancient standards), while the Asian elephants are considered more amenable.

Mammoths are, according to wikipedia, closer related to Asian Elephants than they are to African Elephants, so it might work.

Also i believe that Hanibal used an (extict) variant of the African Elephant to invade Rome. That said, I also heard he used a Asian Elephants. Since the North African Elephant is no longer alive. It is hard to check. That said, I think Mammoths could have been tameble.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Mammoths probably would are as war animals much more impractical than horses. There surely would be same problems as with elephants. Slow to breed, grow up very slowly and need tons of food. So even if they would survive to historic eras local natives probably just would eat them.

They provide useful shock and make an imposing force befitting of the prestige they give to their owners. IMO the disregard of war elephants is a product of Greco-Roman disdain. If mammoths are still around in Northern Europe, any Nordic petty king or Finnish chieftain worthy of the name is going to own a few.

May e we could have the American
Mastodon also survive to some extent. Allegedly they partly survived into Holocene.

Could make for a nice TL, "Mastodons of the Mississippi" or whatever. But I'd expect them to mostly be hunted for meat and ivory rather than being tamed for mounts/animal power, like other large, theoretically domesticable animals like reindeer and moose were in North America.

Mammoths are, according to wikipedia, closer related to Asian Elephants than they are to African Elephants, so it might work.

Also i believe that Hanibal used an (extict) variant of the African Elephant to invade Rome. That said, I also heard he used a Asian Elephants. Since the North African Elephant is no longer alive. It is hard to check. That said, I think Mammoths could have been tameble.

I suppose it might be possible, although we'll probably never know for certain (even if we de-extinct mammoths).

As for Hannibal, the North African elephant was different from other African elephants because it was small and more easily tamed. Hannibal himself owned a Syrian elephant, and I assume the larger elephants Carthage used would also have been Syrian elephants.

 

[pompejus]

As for Hannibal, the North African elephant was different from other African elephants because it was small and more easily tamed. Hannibal himself owned a Syrian elephant, and I assume the larger elephants Carthage used would also have been Syrian elephants.

That would explain why I hear both Hannibal using Asian as well as African elephants. He used both.

 

[Vinization]

Mammoths crossing the Alps? Also, they would be an excellent source of fur, with clothes made out of it becoming a symbol of wealth and prestige.

 

[PuffyClouds]

When the climate changed after the Younger Dryas the plants the megafauna were eating started to disappear, lowering the nutrition available in the tundra. So the best bet would be someone domesticates a dwarf species such as the Channel Island mammoths (2 m tall) or Cretan mammoths (1m tall). Wrangel Island mammoths look like they may have been 2.5 m tall so I don't know how easily they could have been domesticated. Dwarf mammoths would probably be useful as draft animals, which combined with a heavy plow, and a cold hearty cereal would make the clay soils in the lands of what became the Novgorod Republic more productive.

 

[Arkenfolm]

When the climate changed after the Younger Dryas the plants the megafauna were eating started to disappear, lowering the nutrition available in the tundra. So the best bet would be someone domesticates a dwarf species such as the Channel Island mammoths (2 m tall) or Cretan mammoths (1m tall). Wrangel Island mammoths look like they may have been 2.5 m tall so I don't know how easily they could have been domesticated. Dwarf mammoths would probably be useful as draft animals, which combined with a heavy plow, and a cold hearty cereal would make the clay soils in the lands of what became the Novgorod Republic more productive.

Carthage's elephants were small yet still had the drawbacks that make them inefficient for domestication. They take too long to grow to adulthood (over a decade) and have a lengthy gestation time compared to other large mammals. Based on this, they'd be prestige animals and not lend much advantage to Novgorod and the Baltic given they already had hardy breeds of horses and cattle. Outside of war, that is, there I think they'd have some use.

Mammoths are very inefficient compared to other Pleistocene animals like reindeer or moose (although the latter needs an agroforestry system to provide its complex diet and probably forces Northern Europe to independently develop agriculture), both of which I'd expect would be the focus of domestication leaving mammoths a prestige animal like elephants OTL.