WI: Majorly Pro-Gay Soviet Union

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jahenders

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I fail to see how you conclude that the (declining) religious trends are evidence that propaganda can only go so far in an open society. Please explain.

Let's not forget, for all of the West's mistakes and for all the misery the West caused, especially in the developing world, free societies at home have been a defining feature of the Western world. Propaganda can only go so far in an open society, and I think religious trends are evidence of that.
 
I'm not so sure. Most pro-LGBT activists generally held anti-Cold War attitudes that were common in the the Western Left. Meanwhile, most anti-communists tended to be socially conservative and disdainful of homosexuality. In light of that, I have to agree that an LGBT-tolerant USSR would actually be harmful to the gay rights movement in the West. At worst, we might see conservatives advocating Old Testament attitudes towards homosexuality, i.e, stoning.:eek:

Some of the most extreme conservatives would no doubt go that far, but this hypothetical situation comes close to IOTL, anyway.

Also, even if what you said about most pro-LGBT activists holding actively anti-Cold War attitudes was accurate(and it may be partly true, at least), it does nothing to disprove my theory, TBH.

As it stands, it's actually quite logically sound- the idea that the United States should try to "out-civilize" the Soviets, in order to win the Cold War, was always fairly prominent in this country, especially from the later '60s and onward. I have no doubts that many more hardline conservatives would no doubt react with horror and disgust if the Soviet Union were to fully recognize civil unions, in say, 1980 or so(gay marriage might be out of the question for a little while longer, though), but it's honestly not that hard to get at least much of the rest of the public on board, gradually(over a period of, say, 10-15 years or so), that is, with the general idea of out-advancing the Russians in general, including socially.

Also, when you think about it, given the particular circumstances, things really did get about as LGBTs as they could have IOTL, by and large, at least as far as the U.S. is concerned; it is rather easier(slight understatement, btw!) to create a plausible scenario in which a *U.S.(that doesn't fall into a Rumsfeldia-style dictatorship and/or suffers an apocalyptic downfall, etc., that is.) starts a legal road to gay marriage some years earlier than it did IOTL(I'll grant you that, without a Supreme Court order, ~1975 is definitely a tad on the optimistic side for the most part.....but 1985-90 shouldn't be *too* hard, especially if you weaken the Religious Right even a tad compared to OTL, and ~1995 is definitely within easy reach), than it is to delay it much, or even *any* further than 2004, when Mass. fully recognized gay marriage IOTL.
 
I think Averting Stalinism is one way, but on the other hand you could have de-Stalinization under Kruschev go even further, possibly by averting the Cuban missile crisis, and have Homosexuality become more tolerated eventually. But that is more of a long game thing.
If you wanted to make Homosexuality openly accepted in the Soviet Union early on you would probably have to avert Lenin's authoritarian communism, which would probably avert the Soviet Union as we understand it In this timeline almost totally.
 

Dorozhand

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A USSR that continues along Leninist pro-LGBT lines, experimenting with Kollontai-ist ideals and the like could make itself a backbone of the world LGBT acceptance movement in opposition to the Bourgeois west, as well as the same of Feminism. You only really need to get rid of Stalin and his backsliding the worker's revolutionary state into bourgeois nationalist thought. The post-Stalin USSR was fully degenerated, though not without certain glimmerings of socialist movement and success.
 
As it stands, it's actually quite logically sound- the idea that the United States should try to "out-civilize" the Soviets, in order to win the Cold War, was always fairly prominent in this country, especially from the later '60s and onward. I have no doubts that many more hardline conservatives would no doubt react with horror and disgust if the Soviet Union were to fully recognize civil unions, in say, 1980 or so(gay marriage might be out of the question for a little while longer, though), but it's honestly not that hard to get at least much of the rest of the public on board, gradually(over a period of, say, 10-15 years or so), that is, with the general idea of out-advancing the Russians in general, including socially.

That's assuming America will see gay rights as civilised and advanced, rather than uncivilised and morally degenerate.
 
A USSR that continues along Leninist pro-LGBT lines, experimenting with Kollontai-ist ideals and the like could make itself a backbone of the world LGBT acceptance movement in opposition to the Bourgeois west, as well as the same of Feminism. You only really need to get rid of Stalin and his backsliding the worker's revolutionary state into bourgeois nationalist thought. The post-Stalin USSR was fully degenerated, though not without certain glimmerings of socialist movement and success.

Who is this Kollontai guy?
 
I fail to see how you conclude that the (declining) religious trends are evidence that propaganda can only go so far in an open society. Please explain.

Perhaps I should rephrase. If the powers-that-be in a nation want their people to behave in a certain way, there are various tools they can employ. More repressive societies are more successful at achieving these goals, though the costs are also clear (and to my mind, prohibitive, but tell that to a dictator.)

The powers-that-be in freer societies can almost never take the direct route of telling people not to do [whatever] because the people will simply do what they feel like. And rule of law prevents (or is supposed to prevent) draconian measures restricting the rights to disobey the powers-that-be pushing their desired version of normalcy.

I think you think I was trying to make some complex demographic point, but I was only aiming for basic organization theory 101.:p
 
Less Conscious on LGBT Rights in Western World. :(

Western World would look not so Western. :(

I Think Pro-Gay would more likley to be Czarist Russia(I Know, It's was Illegal to be Gay back then), but there were many Gay Russian Poets, Composers like Tchaikovsky.

Did you know that Tchaikovsky's Boyfriend Vladimir Meshchersky was protected by Czar Nicolas II and Czar Alexander III from Public Disgrace/Homophobia?
 
You'd probably have to butterfly Stalin, but after that, if the Russians remain more ambivalent on homosexuality, I see things being much better for the LGBT community, not just in Russia, but better in Communist countries in general.

However, though, although some others seem to believe that homophobia would probably get rather worse in the U.S.....I'm honestly not so convinced of this, however, as IOTL, reactionary right-wingers were already connecting homosexuality with Communism during the '50s in particular.

In fact, I'd like to expand on Expat's argument; there is a rather good chance(I'd say, ~80%) we might actually see a movement to basically outdo Russia beginning to take shape, possibly in the latter '60s, quite likely by the '70s, to show the world that "yes, we really are better and more advanced than the Commies!", something that pretty much all liberals, and no doubt most moderates would be willing to get on board with after a certain point.


Country in Europe is the Most intolerant towards Homosexuality and Homosexuals are Albanians.

Albania is the Most Homophobic Country in Europe.

Albanians are More Homophobic than Russians.

88% of Albanians are Homophobic. While 80% of Russians are Homophobic.

Russians are Slightly more Tolerant towards Homosexuality/Less Homophobic than Albanians.

It was too many Years, under the Communist Rule.

Read this Article:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albania-is-the-most-homophobic-country-in-europe-survey-says
 
You'd probably have to butterfly Stalin, but after that, if the Russians remain more ambivalent on homosexuality, I see things being much better for the LGBT community, not just in Russia, but better in Communist countries in general.

However, though, although some others seem to believe that homophobia would probably get rather worse in the U.S.....I'm honestly not so convinced of this, however, as IOTL, reactionary right-wingers were already connecting homosexuality with Communism during the '50s in particular.

In fact, I'd like to expand on Expat's argument; there is a rather good chance(I'd say, ~80%) we might actually see a movement to basically outdo Russia beginning to take shape, possibly in the latter '60s, quite likely by the '70s, to show the world that "yes, we really are better and more advanced than the Commies!", something that pretty much all liberals, and no doubt most moderates would be willing to get on board with after a certain point.


Country in Europe is the Most intolerant towards Homosexuality in Society and Homosexuals are Albanians.

Albania is the Most Homophobic Country in Europe. :(

88% of Albanians are Homophobic. While 80% of Russians are Homophobic.

Russians are Slightly more Tolerant towards Homosexuality/Less Homophobic than Albanians.

It was too many Years, under the Communist Rule.

Read this Article:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albania-is-the-most-homophobic-country-in-europe-survey-says

Albanian Society should Accept Homosexuality. Like Western Europe, where Homosexuality is Accepted in Society. :)
 
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