… did you know that it was standard even then for underwater repair divers to be part of the crew of major warships i.e the Battleships and Carriers.
WI: major USN refit in the 30s?
- Thread starter Salvare7097
- Start date
That's not enough to fix the majority of torpedo damage enough for the repairs to hold and for the ship to operate at something approaching high speeds. You need time in a drydock for that.
Generally, the pattern is: bomb damage can be patched up fast at Pearl, torpedo damage requires a trip to the West Coast. Lexington if she survives Coral Sea is highly unlikely to make it back to the front in time for Midway. Guadalcanal, on the other hand...
Good Enough to make sure the Ship makes it to port. Not several days of battle.
Even Guadalcanal would be a stretch (not saying it’s impossible). Simply because that in addition to repairing the battle damage. Lexington would be put through the same overhaul that kept Saratoga sidelined. So new radar and an updated and magnified AA battery. Including dual 5/38 guns to replace the 8-inch ones. So assuming a rough timeline of 5 months starting from the end of May or start of June to get to Puget Sound or Mare Island. Including, repairs, modernisation and work up. She would be in Noumea with Saratoga and Enterprise by the end of November 42.
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Exactly.
Saying that though, Lexington’s Air Group would still be deployed. I know I previously mentioned them being used to boost Enterprise’s and Hornet’s Air Group. But another option is for Enterprise and/or Hornet to ferry them out to Midway. To boost their strike package and while the Wildcats and Devastators would suffer when dealing with the Zeroes. The Dauntlesses have more experience than those operated by the Marines. Meaning a full on dive bombing attack from high altitude that could cripple 1 or 2 carriers. Especially if one of those carriers was Hiryu.
But having done that to Saratoga they can cut down the time to do it on Lexington.
i’m not saying they make her battle worthy granted. I’m saying I think I could they can make her able to do 20 kn if required.
Not by much. Bomb or torpedo hits alone is worth 3 months of repairs. But together it could see Lexington out of action for longer. At best guess 5 months. Probably down to 4 given how bloody the Guadalcanal Campaign had gotten between October and November 1942. But that’s still a long time and that’s without Nimitz or King (the latter who was Lexington’s first captain) ordering whatever west coast yard to speed through the repairs.
20-24 knots is good for an escort carrier and to maintain basic air ops. But not enough to maintain coordination with other fleet carriers. Yorktown, even with her boiler super heaters knocked out was just able to make 27 knots. Enough to still somewhat remain close enough to her sisters Enterprise and Hornet and coordinate with them. Lexington would be slowing the fleet down significantly if she was there and it’s harder to keep temporary underwater repairs in place. Than ones to the flight deck. So she would have been weighing down Fletcher and Spruance. A disadvantage when facing other carriers. Let alone coordinating with them. If it was just the bomb damage, Nimitz would not hesitate to patch up and deploy Lexington. But bombs and torpedoes and he is not going to risk it.
It depends. Many ships in WWII had gaping holes of 30-40 feet blown in them, made temporary repairs and continued operations until they could return to port. Some even had their bows blown off.
Not enough time for Enterprise to make that run. Also Midway was maxed out on aircraft and couldn't handle any more squadrons.
You don’t get it. Ships (primarily cruisers) that had their bows blown off were either sunk or damaged to the point where they had to withdraw. Which at the most was a few hours later. Even in the most dire moments of the Guadalcanal Campaign did a ship with extensive underwater damage was forced into consecutive battles. As soon as the temporary repairs are completed. The ship goes to a port (preferably one with a drydock) for more extensive repairs.
In the case of Lexington, it takes far more to temporarily patch up a torpedo hole in the lower hull. Let alone 2.
Not entirely true also, keep in mind that basing Lexington’s Air Group on Midway was an option for Nimitz. Doesn’t mean he will take it. In someways it would make more sense to base them on Enterprise and Hornet. But it would push their aircraft capacity to the limit and we all know how clumsy both carriers were when launching their own Air Groups.
As to making it on time, Task Force 16 (Enterprise, Hornet and friends) left Pearl Harbor on 28 May and would have been in range of Midway by 30 May to 1 June at the earliest to fly off Lexington’s Air Group. Not enough time to develop a coordinated plan. But enough time to get familiar with who and what is on the island. That being said it would be a tight fit with the aircraft station on Midway. But not impossible to have them ready for battle by 4 June.
I am all for removing the nameplate
Scrap the remaining ship
Build a new modern ship
Reattach name plate
However the OP was asking about refits and until 1936 new battleships could not be ordered so it would have made sense up till then and I am not against limited refits to keep some ships current so long as it does not interfere with the production of new ships such as what happened with Italy.
Not if you can help it. A ship with its blow blown off would sail to a yard once the battle was over.
Lexington was able to make 25 kts with the damage done to her. She was doing 25 kts because her forward boilers were out because the supply of feed water was cut off. It wasn't for structural damage. Back at Pearl the water pipe would be replaced, and perhaps new plating welded over the damaged areas. With that done Lexington would be able to steam at full speed. The aviation fuel tanks would be repaired if time allowed, if not jury-rigged tanks might be possible, or she sails without them. Midway is an all-hands on deck operation. As it was Nimitz figured he was outnumbered, and another carrier would even the odds. You do what you have to do.
The Yorktown Class carried up to about 80 aircraft. You might overload each of them with 10-15 aircraft from Lexington, and fly them off to Midway, but not the whole group. Nimitz wasn't 100% sure the Japanese weren't going to show up before June 4th, and being so overloaded flight Opps on all the carriers would be seriously hampered. Again, Midway had limited aviation facilities and was operating over 100 aircraft at the time. They couldn't handle another 70 odd aircraft.
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Tell that to the crews of the Pensacola, New Orleans and Minneapolis.
Yorktown had 3 of her 8 boilers knocked out when she left for Midway. While it maybe possible to get the boiler feed pipe to be fixed en route to or at Pearl and get her boilers working. But you are ignoring the two torpedo holes in her bow. Which are allowing water into the ship as it goes forward. Patches for the torpedo holes are not an easy or quick thing to fix. Also, if the Avgas system leaks are fixed then she can fuel her aircraft. Which is vital for her operations. As a frontline carrier, otherwise if not. Then she would be a liability . Also, Nimitz knew he was out numbered in flat tops and I have no doubt that if Lexington survives. He would do everything possible to have her ready for Midway. But as I keep telling you, those torpedo hits cannot be temporarily fixed to a battle worthy condition in 2-3 days.
Actually a Yorktown-Class can be loaded to 96 aircraft. Also Station Hypo informed Nimitz that the Japanese will show up on 4 June. The wildcard was whether Zuikaku would show up as well. As explained by Jon Parshall in his video with Drachinifel last year. Also, neither Shattered Sword, Craig L Symonds Book, Wikipedia, Jon Parshall, the US Naval Institute or anyone else suggested that just prior to 4 June 1942 the base on Midway was struggling to service and prepare 126 Navy, Marine Corps and Army Air Force aircraft. It would be a tight squeeze but it’s something that could be done. Finally you said it yourself that Nimitz knew he was outnumbered. If Lexington was out of action. Her Air Group was still of use and he would not allow it to remain in Hawaii during the Battle. Either they would be flying off a carrier or flying off of Midway.
Those didn't need the locks on the Illinois or Upper Mississippi. Great Lakes ports built Subs, Frigates, destroyer escorts, minesweepers, LST’s, and cargo vessels, as well as various amphibious, harbor, and patrol craft. builders located along the Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio, and Illinois Rivers delivered eight small oilers, LST’s and LCT’s, towboats, and barges. DEs and Subs needed the highwater to move, the locks on the Illinois
All Great Lakes, Mississippi, Ohio, and Illinois river built vessels moved through New Orleans.
Locks on the Illinois were 600 foot by 110 foot, with a 9 to 11 foot depth, anything with deeper draft had to move on high water periods, as the navigiatable mininnum was 9 foot.
Those ships with bows blown off were either given stub bows or coconut tree bulkheads for the trip to Noumea where a temporary bow would be installed for the trip to pearl, and later West Coast. None of those ships were used in any operations until fully repaired.
With Lexington's air group available, it could have been pieced out to the other carriers to reinforce squadrons with experienced crews or Squadrons added to Air Groups. Either would have been helpful to the Hornet, as it might have prevented the "Flight to Nowhere" waste of a complete air group.
I wasn't suggesting you'd send a ship with her bow blown off into a new operation. What I trying to say was it could still fight where it was, until it could get to a port. I should've made that clear, it's my error.
We are debating all these issues in a vacuum. We don't know what condition Lexington's hull was in. Your assumptions are based on what happened to other carriers hit by torpedoes. When Saratoga was torpedoed on January 11, 42 she had 3 boiler rooms flooded and was capable of only 16 kts. The strategic situation at the moment didn't indicate the Japanese were heading for the Hawaiian area so, they took the time to land her 8" guns, and send her to the West Coast for proper repairs, and upgrades. My assumption is based on Lexington being able to maintain 25 kts speed and continue air ops.
When she reached Pearl, an assessment would've been made to see what they could do with her. The strategic situation in late May was very different than when Saratoga was torpedoed. The Japanese were coming with 4 possible 5 fleet carriers, with several light carriers in the operation as well. Intelligence said the Japanese would attack Midway on June 4th, but until it happens you don't know it will happen. That's why Nimitz wanted his carriers in place several days before the 4th. If you can use a damaged carrier, you're more likely to take the risk in an emergency then in a less stressful situation. Rushing Yorktown's repairs was a risk, but Nimitz made the call and history Prasses him for it.
If Lexington couldn't use half her fuel tanks it might slow her air ops, but she would still generate enough sorties for a 2-day battle, which should be enough. She'd be operating with a short air group since with the scramble for carrier aircraft her loses at Corral Sea couldn't be made good. The carriers that went to Midway had 233 aircraft embarked, and we don't know how many Lexington would be bringing back. There weren't that many more carrier aircraft with crews waiting around.
To my knowledge no Yorktown Class ever went into battle with 96 planes in her air group. Air ops would be a nightmare, especially later in the war when some aircraft types were bigger than the ones being used in 1941/42. Nimitz wouldn't overload his carriers like that, it would only make them less efficient, and he needed them to be at their best at what might be the most critical battle of the war. If Midway was overloaded with 126 aircraft how many more do you think it could take?
Also Unless I am greatly mistaken, aren’t cruisers in general significantly smaller than the Lexingtons. Even modern cruisers? Portland for example is 610 ft long versus 888ft. Heck USS Ticonderoga (CG-47) is 567ft. So win that give them significantly more reserve buoyancy? Thereby making it harder for them to sink?