WI: Luxemburg and Limburg become part of the German Empire?

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Hi!

What if Luxemburg and Limburg become part of the north german confederation and later of the german empire?
How could that happen? How could Prussia convice Luxemburg to join the NGC? How could Limburg become part of it? Maybe Prussia will be buying it from the Netherlands? If yes, how high could be the price?
And what effects could all this have on further history?
 
Very interesting thought.
Luxemburg should be possible, but that would anger France. So there could be an earlier Fraco-Prussian war.
Limburg... I don't know if the Netherlands would be willing selling it. Could be difficult.
 
Very interesting thought.
Luxemburg should be possible, but that would anger France. So there could be an earlier Fraco-Prussian war.
Limburg... I don't know if the Netherlands would be willing selling it. Could be difficult.

Why would the Netherlands need to sell it? They could just detach it from the Netherlands and add it to North Germany - it could still be ruled by the house of Orange.

Another solution is with an earlier POD - the Belgian revolution is resolved using the Talleyrand plan, so Luxembourg and Limburg are a part of Prussia anyway.
 
Why would the Netherlands need to sell it? They could just detach it from the Netherlands and add it to North Germany - it could still be ruled by the house of Orange.

Another solution is with an earlier POD - the Belgian revolution is resolved using the Talleyrand plan, so Luxembourg and Limburg are a part of Prussia anyway.


There should be a (for the Netherlands and Prussia) good treaty to make the first option possible.

I never heard of the Talleyrand plan. But it sounds good.
Hmm... maybe later, on the franco-prussian war (if it would be earlier or not), the Netherlands could be the ally of Prussia, hoping to getting back the dutch-speaking areas?
Wikipedia said:
Part of the province of East Flanders, nearly all of the province of Brabant, the province of Hainaut and the province of Namur west of the Meuse would be assigned to France
 
After the Belgian revolt, it would be relatively easy for Luxemburg to end up German. It wasn't connected to the Netherlands and the Dutch barely cared for it. It is possible to sell them off or something like that, kind of the opposite of the Dutch king trying to sell Luxemburg to France.

Limburg, different story. Limburg was simply put part of the Netherlands. It might have been officialy part of the German confederation, as compensation for the loss of Belgian Luxemburg, but in reality Limburg was just as much part of the Netherlands as Zeeland, Friesland or North Holland was. The Dutch government would never sell it to Germany, just like France would not sell French Catalonia to Spain. There was barely any interest for the peoplein Limburg to join Germany (although there were some who wanted to join Belgium, but no majority of the voters as far as I know). So in short, Limburg is never going to be part of Germany peacefully. A war is possible though, kind of like the Schlesswick wars with Denmark, if Germany would actualy want it. Bismarck actualy did ask for Limburg at one point. The Dutch government said no and it all ended there. Why, because Germany would lose too much in a war ith the Netherlands. Sure, they could easily overrun the Dutch army and defeat them in a war. But they would lose something far more important, a secure western flank. The Dutch were relatively pro-German and fiercly neutral. As long as Germany would leave the Netherlands alone, nothing would happen. If they go to war with the Netherlands, they would know the Netherlands would be driven into the French camp. Better to have a neutral (even pro-German) Netherlands and being able to use those Dutch ports, than a pro-French Netherlands and never be sure that Alsace-Lorraine is the only place those French soldiers can show up.

Also about Tallyrand plan for splitting up Belgium, I always doubt that plan would work. There was a reason the Prussians lost all lands connected to the river Meuse. In the end I think that even if some variant ofthe plan would be used, I think the Netherlands would keep Limburg and Prussia would end up with (just) Lucemburg and part of Liege province(oh and I think Antwerp would end up Dutch anyways, since the British don't want to be forced to be invested in the continent).
 
I looked up whether Limburg was an "integral" part of the Netherlands (i.e. it had claims on the area prior to French Revolution) and I found this. And what language did the locals speak? It might give us a clue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generality_Lands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburgish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastrichtian_dialect

So part of Limburg was owned by the Dutch as a "right of conquest" prior to 1795. So yes, the Dutch had a claim on the area but it was ambiguous and basically on the boundary of their control. I am sure those messy borders would not survive the nineteenth century so it the Netherlands lose Limburg if will be because of Great Power Politics and be because of what France does, not Germany.

As others have said, Germany getting Luxembourg and Limburg depends on France. If France somehow in the early nineteenth century were to swallow up OTL Belgium including most of Flanders, Great Power Politics would seem "compensate" Prussia with either Luxembourg or Limburg or both. It Prussia annexes them, then they have a good chance of winding up part of Germany later.

Still you preferably need a POD prior to 1850.
 
@DocJamore IMHO @pompejus is right, Luxembourg is doable, Limburg not so much. The Netherlands, already lost what became Belgium, were forced to compensate the German Confederation with Dutch Limburg for the loss of Belgian Luxembourg (after their underwhelming support during the Belgian revolt). In other words Luxembourg was a personal union, Limburg was ceded under duress and was never totally separated as a result.
 
Prussia and the Netherlands had good relations, the Prussians wouldn' force the Dutch to give them Limburg, Luxembourg on the other hand is more surprising it ended up outside of Germany.
 
I looked up whether Limburg was an "integral" part of the Netherlands (i.e. it had claims on the area prior to French Revolution) and I found this. And what language did the locals speak? It might give us a clue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generality_Lands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburgish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastrichtian_dialect

So part of Limburg was owned by the Dutch as a "right of conquest" prior to 1795. So yes, the Dutch had a claim on the area but it was ambiguous and basically on the boundary of their control. I am sure those messy borders would not survive the nineteenth century so it the Netherlands lose Limburg if will be because of Great Power Politics and be because of what France does, not Germany.
This is more or less a missunderstanding/missinterpretation of several facts. For example the language they spoke "Limburgish" is simply a Dutch dialect (it certainly is closer to standard Dutch than standard German). In the 19th and early century every part of the Netherlands spoke its own dialect. You could make the same claim about Zeeland, or Groningen and especialy Friesland (Frisian being a seperate language).

Most of what is now Dutch Limburg has been a part of the seventeen provinces, the Northern part has been part of Gueldres/Gelderland, while the south had been part of Limburg/Overmaas. A significant part had been part of the Dutch Republic for quite a while. Maastricht even since the 80-year war. And generality lands were part of the Netherlands, just with different representation. Dutch Brabant was a generality land. Still Dutch.

Mind you, it doesn't realy matter what the situation was during the time of the Republic. From 1815 Limburg was part of the kingdom of the Netherlands, a very different beast than the Republic. The Republic as a lose confederation of states, while the kingdom (especialy after Belgian independence) was a unified state in which Limburg has a similar status to Utrecht. It was a core part of the country. Even if it had been part of the German confederation at the same time. As I have said, it was compensation for the loss of Belgian Luxemburg. Prior to the Belgian revolution, Limburg had not been part of the German confederation.
 
*bump*

In the first years, not that much. But if TTL has a WW1 too, Germany has a certain advantage. A few more soldiers, they don't have to occupy Luxembourg, and thanks to having Limburg, they have some more space to invade Belgium (and later France) with their armies. Paris was IOTL already a close thing... what if the Germans had some small additional advantage? It might make the difference.
 
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