WI: Luftwaffe in Turkey?

germany_bombs_british_towns_and_cities.jpg


Nothing insane here, though diplomatically it might be a stretch.
But what if Franz von Papen had negotiated the usage of Anatolian airbases by the Nazi Luftwaffe as an additional stipulation within the June 18, 1941 German-Turkish Non-Aggression Pact? (think U-Boats in Spanish ports)

1. What effect would this have on the planning and execution of Barbarossa?
2. What effect would this have on the North African/Middle East Campaign?
 
germany_bombs_british_towns_and_cities.jpg


Nothing insane here, though diplomatically it might be a stretch.
But what if Franz von Papen had negotiated the usage of Anatolian airbases by the Nazi Luftwaffe as an additional stipulation within the June 18, 1941 German-Turkish Non-Aggression Pact? (think U-Boats in Spanish ports)

1. What effect would this have on the planning and execution of Barbarossa?
2. What effect would this have on the North African/Middle East Campaign?
Although it might stretch the Luftwaffe a bit, it would have significant consequences in Syria and Iraq. The Caucasus (read Baku) could also be threatened by bombers
 
Why on Earth would Turkey accept this?

U-boats in Spain could be kept quiet, but not airbases. Much radio traffic, hundreds of ground crew. It would be a de facto declaration of war, exposing Turkey to British attack. At this time, Germany couldn't stop British bombing of Berlin. Ankara would be defenseless against bombers from Cyprus.

Turkey would have nothing to gain. That is why Turkey's policy throughout the war was to stay out as long as possible.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Why on Earth would Turkey accept this?
...
...
But what if Franz von Papen had negotiated the usage of Anatolian airbases by the Nazi Luftwaffe as an additional stipulation within the June 18, 1941 German-Turkish Non-Aggression Pact? (think U-Boats in Spanish ports)
...
Because at the time being the Axis, aka Germany, look to many politicians worldwide as the THE WINNER already
- Poland defeated
- France crushed
- all of the Balkan "blitzed" or allied to the Axis
- Britain expelled from the continent : France AND Crete - though the latter admitted quite costly

Part of the deal could be an invasion of Cyprus - at least on paper, might late be "downgraded" to some hefty bombardements, rendering Cyprus relatively useless as a wallies power projector.
Turkey would have nothing to gain. ...
What they could "get" (offered) taken from the wallies :
  1. Cyprus
  2. region of Alexandrette
  3. "Kurdistan"
  4. other parts of Syria maybe parts of Lebanon
And when the SU becomes the "object of greed", ... well, take a "free" pick from/off the Caucasus.

That is why Turkey's policy throughout the war was to stay out as long as possible.
IOTL, ... nothing here that actually forces the turkish politicians not to take another possible turn in history.

... beside applied hindsight.
 

trurle

Banned
Nothing insane here, though diplomatically it might be a stretch.
But what if Franz von Papen had negotiated the usage of Anatolian airbases by the Nazi Luftwaffe as an additional stipulation within the June 18, 1941 German-Turkish Non-Aggression Pact? (think U-Boats in Spanish ports)

1. What effect would this have on the planning and execution of Barbarossa?
2. What effect would this have on the North African/Middle East Campaign?
Additional front of WWII. The absolutely losing proposition for Turkey. I suspect the eastern part of Turkey will be overrun by Soviet and British by October 1941, with the western part occupied by Germany soon afterward. Not sure the Ankara would be initially on the British or German side of front though.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
...
U-boats in Spain could be kept quiet, but not airbases. Much radio traffic, hundreds of ground crew. It would be a de facto declaration of war, exposing Turkey to British attack. At this time, Germany couldn't stop British bombing of Berlin. Ankara would be defenseless against bombers from Cyprus.
Sure, the Brits would detect any build-up ot air-forces in Turkey
... as they knew about german subs in Spain.
If "cloathed" in some kind of supporting or defense agreement, maybe the planes "flagged" as turkish (IIRC the german-turkish military relations had already an operational relativly successfull example for that -> Goeben), the Brits won't be able to do much beside ... attacking Turkey without any reason, driving Turkey even deeper into the Axis' camp.

Brits bombing Berlin at that time ... the germany were "just" in the buisness to deal with that "problem" -> yet undecided BoB.

Also : for projecting any "bombimg power" into Turkey to speak of ... it would have to be taken from elsewhere.

And at that point of time Britain was struggling on the men/material front not less than the Axis, for the moment seemingly even more than victorious Axis.
 

trurle

Banned
Sure, the Brits would detect any build-up ot air-forces in Turkey
... as they knew about german subs in Spain.
If "cloathed" in some kind of supporting or defense agreement, maybe the planes "flagged" as turkish (IIRC the german-turkish military relations had already an operational relativly successfull example for that -> Goeben), the Brits won't be able to do much beside ... attacking Turkey without any reason, driving Turkey even deeper into the Axis' camp.

Brits bombing Berlin at that time ... the germany were "just" in the buisness to deal with that "problem" -> yet undecided BoB.

Also : for projecting any "bombimg power" into Turkey to speak of ... it would have to be taken from elsewhere.

And at that point of time Britain was struggling on the men/material front not less than the Axis, for the moment seemingly even more than victorious Axis.
British would not hesitate a single moment before the invasion to Turkey. Just see the timeline. The British were victorious on Middle East theatre in 1941.
May 1941 - Iraq (IOTL)
June 1941 - Syria/Lebanon (French Mandate of Palestine as in 1941) (IOTL)
August 1941 - Iran (IOTL)
October 1941 - Turkey (ATL)
 

NoMommsen

Donor
British would not hesitate a single moment before the invasion to Turkey. Just see the timeline. The British were victorious on Middle East theatre in 1941.
May 1941 - Iraq (IOTL)
June 1941 - Syria/Lebanon (French Mandate of Palestine as in 1941) (IOTL)
August 1941 - Iran (IOTL)
October 1941 - Turkey (ATL)
Iraq and Iran :
no tru "war", more or less only civil wars, the Brits overthrowing to them "unsuitable" regimes
Syria/Lebanon/Vichy :
what do you expect from already beaten french, who out of escapisms haven't really surrendered to the "common goal" and rallied against the "common enemy", who already/still leaned towards the Wallies ?

All in all : none of these operations could compare with the scale of operations in other theatre, if german forces are seriously involved.

And for
... not hesitate a single moment before the invasion to Turkey ...
the turkish army was quite a different beast even to the few Vichy forces, not to speak of Iran and Iraq.

Counter-arguement during negotiations :
with "proper" support via turkish bases non of this would have happened.
with "proper" based in turkey all that could be regained ... at least partially also for Turkey to gain
 
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