WI: Louisiana Purchase had never happened

This... But if Napoleon got an army to New Orleans as planned, I have doubts that the U.S. Army (which was very incompetent) would be able to take the city, especially since they would have to march through the swamp first.

What sort of army could Napoleon realistically get into New Orleans, and thereafter supply?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
You realize the French did get an army to the Western Hemisphere

This... But if Napoleon got an army to New Orleans as planned, I have doubts that the U.S. Army (which was very incompetent) would be able to take the city, especially since they would have to march through the swamp first.

You realize the French did get an army to the Western Hemisphere in exactly the time period under discussion? It did not end well for the French... just ask General Victor-Emmanuel Leclerc and the survivors of his expeditionary force (~10,000 of some 55,000 deployed). Not exactly a shining moment in French military history, especially considering who they were fighting. (Hint: Not the US;)).

However, if one is going to move on New Orleans from the north, there's a broad and wide open highway ready to be used. The current was in the northern approach's favor, as well, which in an era before steam, amounts to the weather guage; no need to march through any swamps.

Best,
 
Not exactly a shining moment in French military history, especially considering who they were fighting. (Hint: Not the US;)).

I don't get this comment. Give the Haitian rebels their due - they successively defeated the British, Spanish and French.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
In terms of how slender the Haitians' resources were

I don't get this comment. Give the Haitian rebels their due - they successively defeated the British, Spanish and French.

In terms of how slender the Haitians' resources were (basically, courage and whatever they could beg, borrow, steal, or smuggle in terms of weapons, and this on an island)...

Compared to the US, which could (and did) manufacture small arms and artillery, powder and shot, uniforms and foot wear, wagons and ships and boats, and had plenty of riding and draft animals.

So the French lose 4 out of 5 men they deploy to Haiti, even with the logistical disadvantages the Haitians had (obviously, "General Fever" helped); the idea they would triumph against the Americans, who actually had a supply chain that would have been essentially unassailable by a French force operating in Louisina seems a tad optimistic...

Best,
 
You realize the French did get an army to the Western Hemisphere in exactly the time period under discussion? It did not end well for the French... just ask General Victor-Emmanuel Leclerc and the survivors of his expeditionary force (~10,000 of some 55,000 deployed). Not exactly a shining moment in French military history, especially considering who they were fighting. (Hint: Not the US;)).

Most of them died of yellow fever, which (a) wouldn't have been as big a factor in Louisiana, and (b) even assuming an outbreak in that area, would have affected the Americans just as badly as the French. I don't think you can reasonably extrapolate the result of the Haiti expedition to a putative North American war.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Says a lot about the strategic planning capabilities

Most of them died of yellow fever, which (a) wouldn't have been as big a factor in Louisiana, and (b) even assuming an outbreak in that area, would have affected the Americans just as badly as the French. I don't think you can reasonably extrapolate the result of the Haiti expedition to a putative North American war.


Says a lot about the strategic planning abilities of the French military in this period, does it not? Throwing good money after bad is generally not seen as thoughtful assessment of the cost benefit balance....

Along the reality Paris expected to be able to purchase supplies in the U.S. And BWI for Leclerc's forces...

Best,
 
If we're looking for contemporary parallels, what about the US invasions of Canada during the War of 1812? Those didn't exactly fare too well, although on paper an invasion of Canada ought to have been easier for the Americans to pull off (since it was much closer to the US heartland).
 

TFSmith121

Banned
This also raises the parallels of the British

If we're looking for contemporary parallels, what about the US invasions of Canada during the War of 1812? Those didn't exactly fare too well, although on paper an invasion of Canada ought to have been easier for the Americans to pull off (since it was much closer to the US heartland).

This also raises the parallels of the three British invasions of the U.S. in 1814-15 (Plattsburgh, Baltimore, and New Orleans), which were all failures.

The advantages of the defensive over the offensive during the Napoleonic era are obvious; the other reality of the period is that a Franco-American conflict means an Anglo-American alliance, whether de facto or de jure, as in fact the Quasi-War amounted to...

Which means the French, as always, have better places to spend their resources than Natchez and New Orleans - as, in fact, Napoleon recognized when he agreed to the historical purchase.

Best,
 
This also raises the parallels of the three British invasions of the U.S. in 1814-15 (Plattsburgh, Baltimore, and New Orleans), which were all failures.

The advantages of the defensive over the offensive during the Napoleonic era are obvious; the other reality of the period is that a Franco-American conflict means an Anglo-American alliance, whether de facto or de jure, as in fact the Quasi-War amounted to...

Which means the French, as always, have better places to spend their resources than Natchez and New Orleans - as, in fact, Napoleon recognized when he agreed to the historical purchase.

Best,

If "the advantages of the defensive over the offensive during the Napoleonic era are obvious", that would tend to favour the French, who in any realistic scenario would be defending against an American attack.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Depends on when they got there

If "the advantages of the defensive over the offensive during the Napoleonic era are obvious", that would tend to favour the French, who in any realistic scenario would be defending against an American attack.

Depends on when they got there; Leclerc's army left France in December, 1801, and the leading elements didn't arrive off Haiti until February, 1802.

Best,
 
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