WI: Louis XVII survived?

[Marc Pasquin]

No Bourbon Monarch has married a commoner/French noblewoman as a Queen (Louis XIV's second wife was French but was never acknowledged.) so a Foreign Princess is the only real answer. And of course the marriage would be politically motivated, all State/Royal marriages were. Though I fail to see how marrying a foreigner would piss off the commoners. After all after the Bourbon Restoration the Duc de Berri married a Neapolitan Princess and all of the d'Orleans children married foreigners as well.

I'm fully aware regarding the lack commoner as royal wife but that was exactly the point. from a symbolic point of view, following a revolution, marrying into the third estate would unite the people (since obviously you can do jack all with the first) as the kingdom turn into a constitutional monarchy.

Marie Antoinette was almost always refered to as "L'autrichienne" emphasising she wasn't "their" queen and people had just gone through some foreign wars so another foreign born queen might get the same effect. Again, this would be advantageous from a symbolic point of view.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

I'm fully aware regarding the lack commoner as royal wife but that was exactly the point. from a symbolic point of view, following a revolution, marrying into the third estate would unite the people (since obviously you can do jack all with the first) as the kingdom turn into a constitutional monarchy.

Marie Antoinette was almost always refered to as "L'autrichienne" emphasising she wasn't "their" queen and people had just gone through some foreign wars so another foreign born queen might get the same effect. Again, this would be advantageous from a symbolic point of view.

I see your point but it will never happen. No French Monarch has ever married a commoner. The best you could hope for would be a French Noblewoman, besides that no chance. Besides they hated Marie-Antoinette because of her perceived spending habits, the foreign part was secondary. If Louis XVI had a French wife that was the same way as Marie Antoinette with only her nationality different it would probably go the same way.

Any thoughts on the list of Princesses I put together?

 

[JedidiahStott]

No Bourbon Monarch has married a commoner/French noblewoman as a Queen (Louis XIV's second wife was French but was never acknowledged.) so a Foreign Princess is the only real answer.

Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII ? I vaguely recollect that a daughter of one of the Dukes of Burgundy also became Queen of France.

(Depends on whether the semi-sovereign duchies are considered 'foreign' I guess)

 

[AuroraBorealis]

If he were reasonably well treated and kept strictly under house arrest as it were it would be the perfect time to tutor him in the ways of the revolution. You can only trod that path so far though, and continually vilifying his forbears is probably not going to be good for comprehension and absorption of the new revolutionary ideas......

Call it a Stockholm syndrome kinda thing. but perhaps when they finally do away with the Directory they can finally impose a highly circumscribed Constitutional monarchy that probably makes Britain look the epitome of the Ancien regime by comparison. With the king no doubt requiring the assent of an executive Advisory council on most major state decisions....call him the equivalent of the Rubber stamp if you like. In such a scenario, why would the revolutionaries release Marie-Therese.... better to keep them both.

In which case then a Spanish match is indeed possible as they have been forced to be rather disposed favourably towards revolutionary France. But an Austrian or neapolitan one to bring about a rapprochement between former warring parties is possible too.... but I mean they are his first cousins. He is only half Hapsburg you know. Probably better to strengthen the gene pool.

Maria Luisa and Charles are I think a bit further removed from the gene pool, but only just.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII ? I vaguely recollect that a daughter of one of the Dukes of Burgundy also became Queen of France.

(Depends on whether the semi-sovereign duchies are considered 'foreign' I guess)

I wouldn't count them as "Nobles" in the 18th/19th century's definition. They were semi-independent vassals. And with Aquitaine, they might has well have been independent.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

In addition to Maria Antonietta of Naples and Sicily, there is also her sister, Maria Amelia (OTL Queen of the French). Her mother, Maria Carolina, had always told her she would go to France as queen (just not for Louis-Philippe).

 

[Shawn Endresen]

Is L17 being married as a sovereign, absolute monarch (because the Revolution has been put down), as a constitutional monarch (because he has made his peace with the Directorate somehow, and instead of the Consulate we get him) or as a prince in exile? It makes a huge difference.

In exile, he has to take whoever he can get. Elena of Russia does indeed seem a likely choice.

As a sovereign, he's not going to marry a commoner, and highly unlikely to marry a rich french noblewoman. A Neapolitan match makes the most sense, although I'd expect Maria Christina or Maria Amalia before Maria Antonia. Still, any of those three would do.

If he's beholden to a constitution and an assembly, then things get more complicated. The Neapolitan matches still might be viable, but he might be forced to marry down to a Frenchwoman. Depends on exactly what he agreed to to get a throne (and whether, like his father, he's unclear on whether or not a crown makes you exempt from the need to keep your word to anyone).

 

[DrakeRlugia]

I see your point but it will never happen. No French Monarch has ever married a commoner. The best you could hope for would be a French Noblewoman, besides that no chance. Besides they hated Marie-Antoinette because of her perceived spending habits, the foreign part was secondary. If Louis XVI had a French wife that was the same way as Marie Antoinette with only her nationality different it would probably go the same way.

Any thoughts on the list of Princesses I put together?

The Neopolitan branch of the Bourbons, the House of Savoy in Sardinia, the Habsburgs, including the branches that ruled Tuscany and Modena pre-revolution, Russia (at least, if he marries during the window of Paul I's reign and is in exile), perhaps as a matter of reconciliation he could marry his cousin Princess Adelaide of Orléans, as well, which could temper his conservative nature if he turns out much like his sister did. You may also look into the Saxon and Bavarian Electoral families, at least if there is a window before they became Napoleonic Allies.

 

[JonasResende]

As to French noblewomen - I think the only possibilities might be ladies whose father held the rank of prince etranger (foreign prince) at the court at Versailles. They were families who descended from royalty but had since become naturalized in France AFAIK.

Prominent families would be the Rohans (descending from the dukes of Brittany), the de la Tremoille (descending from the kings of Naples), the de la Tour d'Auvergnes (descending from the kings of Jerusalem) and the "Guises" (a scion of the house of Lorraine).

However, the Guise branch of the Lorraines was for all intents and purposes dead by the time Louis XVII would marry - since the prince de Lambesc had no children by any of his two/three wives. The last duc de Bouillon was reportedly "unable" to have children.

Rohans would probably not go over well as a result of the Affaire du Colliere (implicating Antoinette and Cardinal de Rohan). Leaving the house of la Tremoille. Now Charles Bretagne Marie de la Tremoille, duc de Thouars, had a daughter - Caroline - born in 1788, and died in '91. Maybe let her have some better genes, and live to become queen.

That basically leaves the cadet branches of the Bourbon family. Conti has no children. Condé's daughter (originally proposed as a wife for Charles X) is too old, and he has no granddaughters. Which isolates Adelaide d'Orleans (born 1777) to Louis XVII's 1785.

An eight year age gap is not unreasonable (Marie Leszczynska was born in 1701 to Louis XV's 1709), but I think Louis XVII might refuse such a marriage as "beneath his dignity". Especially since Adelaide was only "altesse serenissme" while as the dauphin he merited "altesse royal". It sounds stupid, but Louis, duc d'Orleans and Grand Duchess Elizabeth/Natalia Petrovna's marriage proposal foundered on that. She merited "altesse imperiale" and he only "serene highness" - so there might be something there.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

As to French noblewomen - I think the only possibilities might be ladies whose father held the rank of prince etranger (foreign prince) at the court at Versailles. They were families who descended from royalty but had since become naturalized in France AFAIK.

Prominent families would be the Rohans (descending from the dukes of Brittany), the de la Tremoille (descending from the kings of Naples), the de la Tour d'Auvergnes (descending from the kings of Jerusalem) and the "Guises" (a scion of the house of Lorraine).

However, the Guise branch of the Lorraines was for all intents and purposes dead by the time Louis XVII would marry - since the prince de Lambesc had no children by any of his two/three wives. The last duc de Bouillon was reportedly "unable" to have children.

Rohans would probably not go over well as a result of the Affaire du Colliere (implicating Antoinette and Cardinal de Rohan). Leaving the house of la Tremoille. Now Charles Bretagne Marie de la Tremoille, duc de Thouars, had a daughter - Caroline - born in 1788, and died in '91. Maybe let her have some better genes, and live to become queen.

That basically leaves the cadet branches of the Bourbon family. Conti has no children. Condé's daughter (originally proposed as a wife for Charles X) is too old, and he has no granddaughters. Which isolates Adelaide d'Orleans (born 1777) to Louis XVII's 1785.

An eight year age gap is not unreasonable (Marie Leszczynska was born in 1701 to Louis XV's 1709), but I think Louis XVII might refuse such a marriage as "beneath his dignity". Especially since Adelaide was only "altesse serenissme" while as the dauphin he merited "altesse royal". It sounds stupid, but Louis, duc d'Orleans and Grand Duchess Elizabeth/Natalia Petrovna's marriage proposal foundered on that. She merited "altesse imperiale" and he only "serene highness" - so there might be something there.

Yeah I don't know where the idea of Louis XVII marrying a noblewoman came from but its NOT gonna happen. And as for Adelaide d'Oleans, really? The daughter of the man who voted for Louis XVI's execution? Not gonna happen.

He would either marry in exile or do what the Duc de Berri did and wait for his restoration (in 1814 he would only be 29 so its not to much of a stretch for him to wait).

 

[JonasResende]

He would either marry in exile or do what the Duc de Berri did and wait for his restoration (in 1814 he would only be 29 so its not to much of a stretch for him to wait).

It might be too much of a stretch for him to wait until 1814. Louis XIII and Anne of Austria had problems with the next in line, Gaston, as well as Conde, before Louis XIV (who was named Dieudonne "the god-given) was born. Also, part of the reason that the duc de Bourbon sent la Reine-Infante home was because "if the king still has to wait for the lady to grow up to marry her, he will turn either to mistresses or mignons who will rule him as he rules France". And Louis would've only had to wait a few years, not upwards of twenty.

As stated above, Louis XIII and the Regence that followed his death, had problems with Gaston. Now, the Comte de Provence is as clever as a bag of snakes, as long as he is heir-presumptive, he's going to be itching for the crown on his own head saying "I can be a better king than a child" or something like that.

Also, Bourbon's eagerness to marry Louis XV off was probably as a way of preventing civil war in France if the king died. Since AFAIK it wasnt very clear if Philip V and the Orleans clan would respect the right of the other to succeed.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

It might be too much of a stretch for him to wait until 1814. Louis XIII and Anne of Austria had problems with the next in line, Gaston, as well as Conde, before Louis XIV (who was named Dieudonne "the god-given) was born. Also, part of the reason that the duc de Bourbon sent la Reine-Infante home was because "if the king still has to wait for the lady to grow up to marry her, he will turn either to mistresses or mignons who will rule him as he rules France". And Louis would've only had to wait a few years, not upwards of twenty.

As stated above, Louis XIII and the Regence that followed his death, had problems with Gaston. Now, the Comte de Provence is as clever as a bag of snakes, as long as he is heir-presumptive, he's going to be itching for the crown on his own head saying "I can be a better king than a child" or something like that.

Also, Bourbon's eagerness to marry Louis XV off was probably as a way of preventing civil war in France if the king died. Since AFAIK it wasnt very clear if Philip V and the Orleans clan would respect the right of the other to succeed.

OK thats great and all but practically none of that matters. The Comte de Provence can bitch all he wants, it won't do any good. The french had never bypassed a rightful heir at that point in history. Second, no one would recognize him as the rightful heir. No Royalist, nor foreign government. Louis XVII would be the rightful King, end of story. And the other problem would be who's the Comte's heir? The deposed Louis XVII? The Comte de Artois? Or the Duc d' Angouleme or de Berri? See screwing with the succession line would just cause all sorts of chaos and would unnecessarily divide the Royalists. No if Louis XVII doesn't get an equal bride, he'll just wait until he's restored, like de Berri did.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

OK thats great and all but practically none of that matters. The Comte de Provence can bitch all he wants, it won't do any good. The french had never bypassed a rightful heir at that point in history. Second, no one would recognize him as the rightful heir. No Royalist, nor foreign government. Louis XVII would be the rightful King, end of story. And the other problem would be who's the Comte's heir? The deposed Louis XVII? The Comte de Artois? Or the Duc d' Angouleme or de Berri? See screwing with the succession line would just cause all sorts of chaos and would unnecessarily divide the Royalists. No if Louis XVII doesn't get an equal bride, he'll just wait until he's restored, like de Berri did.

Might I remind you, Gaston would've had the same problem with the Fronde (his only son died in infancy, and he was left with five daughters). Though admittedly Louis XVIII is far more intelligent than Gaston. Richelieu once spoke of him [Gaston] as being like glass - IIRC.

Also, the only reason I can think of that Louis XVII won't get an equal bride would be for one of two reasons:

a) It doesn't look like he'll be restored to the throne any time soon, or
b) Nobody wants to piss off the French government by providing him with one.

Berri did go acourting during exile according to Susan Nagel. One of the places where he stopped was Naples. There he paid court to Maria Amelia (later Queen of the French) and her sister Maria Cristina (later Queen of Sardinia). However, AFAIK their father refused because of the volatile situation in France or somesuch (this was around the same time Angouleme married Madame Royale). So Berri returned to London and married one Amy Brown in 1806. Then at the Restauration he separated from her and the marriage was declared invalid due to lack of royal assent.

Therefore, I should imagine - if the royal family were putting pressure on the younger generation (Angouleme, Berri) to marry in the hopes of continuing the Bourbon line, the chances that they would allow Louis XVII to remain unwed is unlikely.

He would need a bride from a comparatively liberal (to the Bourbons, anyway) house, since you can't have him (or the government whou might want him to be a rubber stamp) being liberal, and then having a wife who's going to slip her feet under the table and bring up a brood of more conservative minded princes.

My opinions

Amelia of Britain/Alexandra/Elena/Maria Pavlovna is a good idea (if you could get anyone in either royal family or Parliament to agree to it).
Maria Amelia was too conservative (she had very established ideas of what and how royalty were to be)
I would say a German princess who is perhaps willing to find Paris worth a mass - i.e. Baden, Württemberg, Hesse; or who is already Catholic like Wittelsbach or Saxony (all married into, or were proposed to marry into the Bonaparte-Beauharnais family - except Saxony).
An Italian princess - Naples, Parma, Tuscany, Modena (all cousins) - is only to be considered in dire circumstances (since it wouldn't be deepening the gene pool any by allowing one of them to go to Paris [particularly Parma]).
An infanta (of Spain/Portugal) could sit comfortably as queen (the closest relative would be Louis XIV/XV or Friedrich August II of Saxony.)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I see your point but it will never happen. No French Monarch has ever married a commoner. The best you could hope for would be a French Noblewoman, besides that no chance. Besides they hated Marie-Antoinette because of her perceived spending habits, the foreign part was secondary. If Louis XVI had a French wife that was the same way as Marie Antoinette with only her nationality different it would probably go the same way.

Any thoughts on the list of Princesses I put together?

What were Caterina de Medici and Marie Leszczynska then if not well-connected commoners? If not for Clement VII and Carl XII, they would both be distinctly unroyal.

The French AFAIK thought Henri II was wasted in marriage because Caterina was only the Pope's niece. François I said after Paulus III succeeded to the Chair of St. Peter's and was forced to accept that the dowry Clement had offered would never be paid in full, said: "the girl has come to me stark naked", since even some of her jewelry was theoretically jewels belonging to the papacy and had to be returned.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

What were Caterina de Medici and Marie Leszczynska then if not well-connected commoners? If not for Clement VII and Carl XII, they would both be distinctly unroyal.

The French AFAIK thought Henri II was wasted in marriage because Caterina was only the Pope's niece. François I said after Paulus III succeeded to the Chair of St. Peter's and was forced to accept that the dowry Clement had offered would never be paid in full, said: "the girl has come to me stark naked", since even some of her jewelry was theoretically jewels belonging to the papacy and had to be returned.

Neither one of them were commoners though. Catherine de Medici's family, though not hereditary rulers, had ruled Florence for generations and was the Pope's niece. And as to Marie Leszczyńska, her father was a Noble of Poland and that country's sometime King. So neither one was a commoner by any means.

 

[Simreeve]

And as to Marie Leszczyńska, her father was a Noble of Poland

But Poland had a LOT of nobles...

 

[Valena]

As a descendant of a noble of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, I co-sign with that - 20% of PLC population were technically nobility. The daughter of elected King whose grandfather was merely a low-ranked noble and who had no descent in any way to either Princely families of HRE or early rulers of either Poland or Lithuania, is probably the lowest ranked person ever to be a Queen of France. In fact, a daughter of any POTUS would have been in the same position as her - her father being ELECTED King, holding a position for a few years and then exiled. So Marie Leszczynska is a very definition of a commoner Queen - a mere noble descent being meaningless in the country where 20% of population counted as nobility.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

As a descendant of a noble of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, I co-sign with that - 20% of PLC population were technically nobility. The daughter of elected King whose grandfather was merely a low-ranked noble and who had no descent in any way to either Princely families of HRE or early rulers of either Poland or Lithuania, is probably the lowest ranked person ever to be a Queen of France. In fact, a daughter of any POTUS would have been in the same position as her - her father being ELECTED King, holding a position for a few years and then exiled. So Marie Leszczynska is a very definition of a commoner Queen - a mere noble descent being meaningless in the country where 20% of population counted as nobility.

OK there's a big difference between marrying a daughter of minor nobility and marrying an innkeeper or tailors daughter. Those would be real commoners.

 

[Marc Pasquin]

OK there's a big difference between marrying a daughter of minor nobility and marrying an innkeeper or tailors daughter. Those would be real commoners.

But in between he could marry the daughter of a powerful, popular, well connected leader of enterprise especialy if said person is popular with the rest of the population.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

But in between he could marry the daughter of a powerful, popular, well connected leader of enterprise especialy if said person is popular with the rest of the population.

Then he might as well marry one of Napoleon's sisters. That would technically be the best bet.