WI: Louis VIII and Eleanor of Brittany

I must say that's an interesting scenario... Despite the fact it would have to break one of the most awesome couple of the Middle Age (Louis VIII & Blanche of Castille).

Eleanor of Britanny was the daughter of Geoffrey Plantagenêt and Constance of Britanny and the sister of Arthur I of Britanny. Thus, she would technically be Arthur's heiress regarding his rights to the English Throne (and the Angevin Empire for that matter).
Taking into account Philip II Augustus played Arthur's rights against John Lackland, he could be tempted to defend Eleanor's rights if she is married to his son Louis VIII in this Timeline. Philip II probably had a hand in having his son claim the English Throne via his marriage to Blanche de Castille OTL, but here Eleanor's rights would grant Louis VIII a stronger claim than OTL (Since Geoffrey Plantagenêt was John's older brother, it could be argued his children (and thus Eleanor) had more right to the English throne than their Uncle).
Thus, Louis VIII could technically inherit France from his father Philip II, become Duke of Britanny jure uxoris and have rights on Anjou, Maine, Tourraine, Normandy, Aquitaine and England also jure uxoris. So to speak, you could basically turn the "Angevin Empire" into a "Capetian Empire" with enough skills and luck.

Two questions come to my mind though...

1) Could this marriage be done?
Regarding consanguinity, I don't think there would be problems with Eleanor of Britanny marrying Louis VIII. Louis VII, granfather of Louis VIII, was already 4th/5th cousin of Eleanor of Aquitaine (that's how they got their divorce), grandmother of Eleanor of Britanny : this would make Louis VIII and Eleanor 6th/7th cousin, which isn't forbidden by Chuch Laws.
As for age, it would definitely not be a problem : Eleanor was only 3 years older than Louis VIII, so she could be his bride.
But I'm sure even John Lackland would see the threat of letting Eleanor of Britanny marry the eldest son of Philip Augustus. Not sure he could oppose it though.

2) Who would be the lucky husband of Blanche of Castille?
 
From a quick glance Eleanor and Louis were actually third cousins, both being great-great-grandchildren of Fulk V of Anjou by his first marriage to Ermengarde of Maine (his second marriage made him King of Jerusalem jure uxoris, and he is perhaps more known by that title). Still, a dispensation would have been no trouble to obtain. Eleanor's person might have been, however... any marriage, and Eleanor was at one time mooted as a possible bride for Louis, would only have taken place while Richard and Arthur were still alive, and it still seemed possible that Richard might have a son. If the marriage had happened, I'm not sure that, perversely, it might not have weakened Louis' cause in England.

My speculation is that the English barons were happy to play Louis against John while his claim through his wife was so vague and iffy that they could renege on their support whenever they felt like it. If he had had a powerful claim through Eleanor rather than an exceedingly weak one through Blanche, they might have decided that, awful as John was, he was a lesser evil than being perpetually locked into subjection to the French kings.
 
Domenic said:
From a quick glance Eleanor and Louis were actually third cousins, both being great-great-grandchildren of Fulk V of Anjou by his first marriage to Ermengarde of Maine (his second marriage made him King of Jerusalem jure uxoris, and he is perhaps more known by that title). Still, a dispensation would have been no trouble to obtain. Eleanor's person might have been, however... any marriage, and Eleanor was at one time mooted as a possible bride for Louis, would only have taken place while Richard and Arthur were still alive, and it still seemed possible that Richard might have a son. If the marriage had happened, I'm not sure that, perversely, it might not have weakened Louis' cause in England.

Would Richard really need to stay alive for that marriage to happen? I don't really see how his survival would be necessary for such a marriage. Plus, given how Richard and Philip Augustus relationship ended up in the end, I think Richard would be more a problem than a solution.

Domenic said:
My speculation is that the English barons were happy to play Louis against John while his claim through his wife was so vague and iffy that they could renege on their support whenever they felt like it. If he had had a powerful claim through Eleanor rather than an exceedingly weak one through Blanche, they might have decided that, awful as John was, he was a lesser evil than being perpetually locked into subjection to the French kings.

Good point. Don't think Louis would bother claiming England if the attitude of the English Barons is what you suppose it is.

How about John's French feudal holdings? Destroying the power of the Plantagenêts in France was Philip Augustus' main objective : that's the reason he seized Normandy, Anjou, Maine, Tourraine and a good part of Aquitaine when given the occasion to do so.
Here, his son Louis would have a legitimate claim on all those lands in right of his wife. Not to mention those territories could go to the Royal Dosmaine and considerably increase the French King's wealth and power later.
Plus, Louis seems likely to go for this : OTL, after he failed to claim the English Crown in the First Baron War, he invaded and seized several lands in Aquitaine.
 
Would Richard really need to stay alive for that marriage to happen? I don't really see how his survival would be necessary for such a marriage. Plus, given how Richard and Philip Augustus relationship ended up in the end, I think Richard would be more a problem than a solution.



Good point. Don't think Louis would bother claiming England if the attitude of the English Barons is what you suppose it is.

How about John's French feudal holdings? Destroying the power of the Plantagenêts in France was Philip Augustus' main objective : that's the reason he seized Normandy, Anjou, Maine, Tourraine and a good part of Aquitaine when given the occasion to do so.
Here, his son Louis would have a legitimate claim on all those lands in right of his wife. Not to mention those territories could go to the Royal Dosmaine and considerably increase the French King's wealth and power later.
Plus, Louis seems likely to go for this : OTL, after he failed to claim the English Crown in the First Baron War, he invaded and seized several lands in Aquitaine.

So Basically whether Louis marries Blanche or Eleanor the effect will be still the same.
 
I was just thinking that Eleanor would be more likely to be married to Louis when he was less likely to get a claim through her. Richard being alive and at least theoretically capable of fathering a son would be a factor in that, that's all. The point that while Louis might (if my speculation has any basis, it is just a guess on my part really) not find Eleanor as great a help as might be expected in claiming England he would in claiming even the French lands that remained to John is a very fair one. However this would apply only if Arthur was not alive, leading to another result of this POD: instead of cruelly murdering Arthur John would prize and protect his life next to his own, as while Arthur lived Eleanor's claim was null.
 
kasumigenx said:
So Basically whether Louis marries Blanche or Eleanor the effect will be still the same.

A difference would be that Louis VIII would have had a claim on every land of John, making the conquest of the French feudal holdings would be linked to a succession, and not to Philip Augustus using feudal law like OTL : Technically, the conquest of Normany, Anjou, Maine, Tourraine and part of Aquitaine were legal because Philip confiscated them from his vassal (John Lackland) because John had betrayed feudal rules by kidnapping Isabella of Angoulême (who was to wed Hugh X of Lusignan when John kidnapped her).

Another difference would be that Britanny is inherited by the French crown. This did not happen OTL as the Duchy of Britanny passed to Constance's daughter Alix de Thouars (born from Constance's second or third marriage, can't remember) who then wedded in the House of Dreux, a cadet branch of the Capetians. Britanny only became incorporated to France in 1491 with Anne of Britanny marrying Charles VIII then Louis XII, then her daughter Claude marrying Francis I.

Lastly, Louis would have a claim that could surpass John's (technically) on the English throne, which may lead later to a reverse version of the Hundread Years' War if you have a French King with enough ambition, and on the French lands of the "Angevin Empire", which would probably help in securing them (and might add all of Aquitaine to the French Kingdom rather than just leaving a small part of it to England).

Domenic said:
I was just thinking that Eleanor would be more likely to be married to Louis when he was less likely to get a claim through her. Richard being alive and at least theoretically capable of fathering a son would be a factor in that, that's all.

Oh, now I understand what you meant earlier. I must say this makes sense.

Domenic said:
The point that while Louis might (if my speculation has any basis, it is just a guess on my part really) not find Eleanor as great a help as might be expected in claiming England he would in claiming even the French lands that remained to John is a very fair one. However this would apply only if Arthur was not alive, leading to another result of this POD: instead of cruelly murdering Arthur John would prize and protect his life next to his own, as while Arthur lived Eleanor's claim was null.

Good point. Thus, instead of mysteriously disappearing (Arthur was probably murdered by John, but we lost his tracks around 1203 and can't be 100% sure of what happened), Arthur could end his life on captivity in an English Castle.

However, I doubt John would let Arthur marry at one point. If he did so, there would be a potential threat to his rule or that of his heirs.
Problem is that if Arthur does not marry, then Eleanor remains Arthur's heiress, leading to Louis and his children inheriting her claim at one point in that scenario. Of course, this would have to wait for Arthur's death.

Another problem with Arthur being in captivity in England is that the English Barons could be tempted to liberate him if they rebel like OTL.
 
A difference would be that Louis VIII would have had a claim on every land of John, making the conquest of the French feudal holdings would be linked to a succession, and not to Philip Augustus using feudal law like OTL : Technically, the conquest of Normany, Anjou, Maine, Tourraine and part of Aquitaine were legal because Philip confiscated them from his vassal (John Lackland) because John had betrayed feudal rules by kidnapping Isabella of Angoulême (who was to wed Hugh X of Lusignan when John kidnapped her).

Another difference would be that Britanny is inherited by the French crown. This did not happen OTL as the Duchy of Britanny passed to Constance's daughter Alix de Thouars (born from Constance's second or third marriage, can't remember) who then wedded in the House of Dreux, a cadet branch of the Capetians. Britanny only became incorporated to France in 1491 with Anne of Britanny marrying Charles VIII then Louis XII, then her daughter Claude marrying Francis I.

Lastly, Louis would have a claim that could surpass John's (technically) on the English throne, which may lead later to a reverse version of the Hundread Years' War if you have a French King with enough ambition, and on the French lands of the "Angevin Empire", which would probably help in securing them (and might add all of Aquitaine to the French Kingdom rather than just leaving a small part of it to England).



Oh, now I understand what you meant earlier. I must say this makes sense.



Good point. Thus, instead of mysteriously disappearing (Arthur was probably murdered by John, but we lost his tracks around 1203 and can't be 100% sure of what happened), Arthur could end his life on captivity in an English Castle.

However, I doubt John would let Arthur marry at one point. If he did so, there would be a potential threat to his rule or that of his heirs.
Problem is that if Arthur does not marry, then Eleanor remains Arthur's heiress, leading to Louis and his children inheriting her claim at one point in that scenario. Of course, this would have to wait for Arthur's death.

Another problem with Arthur being in captivity in England is that the English Barons could be tempted to liberate him if they rebel like OTL.

I think he can order for John to be assassinated, I don't think he can let John to live in that situation.
 
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