WI: Louis, le Grand Dauphin Has Issue by his Second Wife

Louis, le Grand Dauphin, only legitimate son of Louis XIV, remarried morganatically after the death of his first wife, to former Huguenot, the buxom Marie Émilie de Joly de Choin. There was a son born in 1695, but he died in 1697. But say that the child had survived or that there had been other kids (he married her in 1695, when she was 25, and died sixteen years later, when she would’ve been 43). How would these children have been regarded? They’re a touch better than royal bastards, since mom and dad were actually married (albeit in private). But the French succession also doesn’t acknowledge morganatic marriages AFAIK, which means that this/these kid(s) would have a claim to the throne in the event of the dauphine’s line dying out. The marriage was supposedly never recognized and she never received the title of dauphine or took part in court life, and yet, Mlle de Choin was regarded as much the dauphin’s wife as everyone ‘knew’ Madame de Maintenon was Louis XIV’s.


So how might the situation develop if the Dauphin has a surviving kid(s) by Mlle de Joly? What might the future of these children be?
 
So, something I was wondering - OTL in his will Louis XIV inserted his bastards (Maine and Toulouse) in the succession ahead of the Régent, after his own legitimate grandkids were whittled down to the king of Spain, and a great-grandson in the form of the sickly future Louis XV (Berri had died without male issue). The Régent had the will broken by the Parlement soon after Louis XIV's death, and reset the succession. Might Louis XIV insert a son of Mlle de Choin - who's legitimate - instead of his bastards? Or that son with his bastards, and would the Régent still be able to convince the parlement to break the will? It's one thing when bastards are inserted ahead of legitimately born claimants, but Mlle de Choin's son is lawfully begotten within wedlock, can parlement nullify the marriage? Or would they agree to remove Maine/Toulouse but leave this boy in the succession?
 
Hm, this is actually an interesting question. OTL none of the four known secret marriages resulted in (surviving) children, so there's no real precedence in French law. However, from what I can tell secret marriages were basically a form of Morganatic marriage or the French equivalent. So if le Grand Dauphin and his secret wife had surviving issue, they wouldn't be in the line of succession. According to this site (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/morganat.htm), a great source for the French royal House, Court and royal law BTW;

"An interesting feature of Old Regime private law does, in fact, turn secret marriages into the equivalent of morganatic marriages. the children to be born of those marriages whose participants held or shall hold secret during their lifetime, who feel rather the shame of concubinage than the dignity of marriage, shall be incapable of any inheritance, as well as their issue. The jurist Pothier (Traité des successions, Chapitre I, section I, article 3, § 4) adds that, although such marriages were performed according to the requirements of the law (in particular, they are canonically valid), they are not legitimate for the purposes of inheritance. Among proofs that a marriage is held secret, he mentions the fact that the wife does not take the name of her husband."

So at most any surviving children would be treated as legitimized issue, albeit a step above Louis XIV's bastards as they would be technically legitimate. As for the succession, Louis XIV never put Maine and Toulouse ahead of the Orléans. He placed them behind all legitimate males of the House of Bourbon and made them Princes du Sang. So Maine or Toulouse's lines would only inherit after the Orléans, Condé and Conti branches.
 
Hm, this is actually an interesting question. OTL none of the four known secret marriages resulted in (surviving) children, so there's no real precedence in French law. However, from what I can tell secret marriages were basically a form of Morganatic marriage or the French equivalent. So if le Grand Dauphin and his secret wife had surviving issue, they wouldn't be in the line of succession. According to this site (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/morganat.htm), a great source for the French royal House, Court and royal law BTW;

Four known secret marriages? Louis XIV and Mme de Maintenon's is one; the dauphin and Mlle de Choin is the second; who are the third and fourth? Thanks for the link!

"An interesting feature of Old Regime private law does, in fact, turn secret marriages into the equivalent of morganatic marriages. the children to be born of those marriages whose participants held or shall hold secret during their lifetime, who feel rather the shame of concubinage than the dignity of marriage, shall be incapable of any inheritance, as well as their issue. The jurist Pothier (Traité des successions, Chapitre I, section I, article 3, § 4) adds that, although such marriages were performed according to the requirements of the law (in particular, they are canonically valid), they are not legitimate for the purposes of inheritance. Among proofs that a marriage is held secret, he mentions the fact that the wife does not take the name of her husband."

Damn! And here I was hoping that we could see a king of France descended from the dauphin's private marriage. Is it possible that the dauphin could've married Mlle de Choin in a non-morganatic marriage? Antonia Fraser in her bio on Louis XIV, writes that the reason the king didn't contract a new marriage after Maria Teresa died, was because a new queen would mean a new royal family, and the dauphine was already providing for that. In 1695, surely nobody can foresee that the dauphin's only legitimate grandkids are going to be either Louis XV or the Spanish line - hell, if I remember another Louis XIV bio correctly, the dauphin was actually in favour of abdicating his own rights to the Spanish throne to his son. If he has a son by Mlle de Choin, would the Spanish likewise accept the boy as legitimate king? Could make for interesting times.

So at most any surviving children would be treated as legitimized issue, albeit a step above Louis XIV's bastards as they would be technically legitimate. As for the succession, Louis XIV never put Maine and Toulouse ahead of the Orléans. He placed them behind all legitimate males of the House of Bourbon and made them Princes du Sang. So Maine or Toulouse's lines would only inherit after the Orléans, Condé and Conti branches.

My bad. I checked my sources, and he [Louis XIV] gave Maine the charge of the future Louis XV's education and person (while Orléans would hold the actual regency), as well, as inserting Maine and Toulouse "if in the course of time all the legitimate princes of our august house of Bourbon die out, so that there doesn't remain a single one to inherit the crown" the legitimized bastards could succeed (July 1714); May 1715 they were given the rank of Princes du Sang with precendence over the other princes [étrangers?] of sovereign houses.
 
The other two were Louis-Philippe I, Duc d'Orléns and Charlotte-Jeanne Berault de La Haye de Riou in 1773 and Anne-Marie-Louise d'Orléans, Duchesse de Montpensier and Antoine-Nompar de Caumont, Duc de Lauzun circa 1682. However, the le Grand Mademoiselle's marriage is the most disputed and controversial: her biographers can't agree wither or not the two formally married in secret or not.

As for le Grand Dauphin marrying Émilie openly? No way in hell Louis XIV would accept that. Look at how much of a scandal surrounded la Grand Mademoiselle's desire to marry Lauzun in 1670 and multiply it by 1000%. The Dauphin could never be allowed to marry his mistress openly and present her as the future Queen of France. If he even attempted to the King would declare it invalid and exile Émilie, not unlike what happened when Gaston tried to marry without Louis XIII's permission.
 
The other two were Louis-Philippe I, Duc d'Orléns and Charlotte-Jeanne Berault de La Haye de Riou in 1773 and Anne-Marie-Louise d'Orléans, Duchesse de Montpensier and Antoine-Nompar de Caumont, Duc de Lauzun circa 1682. However, the le Grand Mademoiselle's marriage is the most disputed and controversial: her biographers can't agree wither or not the two formally married in secret or not.

As for le Grand Dauphin marrying Émilie openly? No way in hell Louis XIV would accept that. Look at how much of a scandal surrounded la Grand Mademoiselle's desire to marry Lauzun in 1670 and multiply it by 1000%. The Dauphin could never be allowed to marry his mistress openly and present her as the future Queen of France. If he even attempted to the King would declare it invalid and exile Émilie, not unlike what happened when Gaston tried to marry without Louis XIII's permission.

Forgot about the duc d'Orléans' marriage, and as to la Mademoiselle's marriage, I find disputing claims of whether they married or not, so I'm never quite sure what to make of it.

I don't know if there's necessarily going to be a scandal for the dauphin. As I said, in 1695, no one could've predicted that Louis XV would be the dauphin's only grandson in France, and Monseigneur has provided for the succession (Louis XIV was never serious about any negotiations for a second marriage for his son OTL), and Emilie was liked by Mme de Maintenon and many at court, so why would Louis XIV make an issue of it? It's not like with la Grande Mademoiselle where if she produced a miracle baby, it would mean that her fortune would pass to them, rather than to Louis XIV. And one of the genii that had blocked that match (Maria Teresa) was dead. So would Louis XIV necessarily create a scandal?
 
Louis, le Grand Dauphin, only legitimate son of Louis XIV, remarried morganatically after the death of his first wife, to former Huguenot, the buxom Marie Émilie de Joly de Choin. There was a son born in 1695, but he died in 1697. But say that the child had survived or that there had been other kids (he married her in 1695, when she was 25, and died sixteen years later, when she would’ve been 43). How would these children have been regarded? They’re a touch better than royal bastards, since mom and dad were actually married (albeit in private). But the French succession also doesn’t acknowledge morganatic marriages AFAIK, which means that this/these kid(s) would have a claim to the throne in the event of the dauphine’s line dying out. The marriage was supposedly never recognized and she never received the title of dauphine or took part in court life, and yet, Mlle de Choin was regarded as much the dauphin’s wife as everyone ‘knew’ Madame de Maintenon was Louis XIV’s.


So how might the situation develop if the Dauphin has a surviving kid(s) by Mlle de Joly? What might the future of these children be?

The so-called secret marriages are so called because they have no official status. We do not know the date of Louis XIV's second wedding because there was no registration. Any child of a secret marriage is, legally, a bastard of unknown father. He might be recognized, even legitimized, but he could never be considered a prince of the blood. The best case would be an "almost-prince" situation a la Orléans-Longueville or Du Maine/Toulouse. But these situations are precarious, as Philippe d'Orléans and the Paris Parliament proved in 1715.
 
Okay, so inserting this boy in the succession is unlikely - if not impossible. But, let's take the existence of this kid to start with. Would he be recognized at court as the son of the dauphin? Sort of 'open secret' type? And also, Louis XIV's bastard kids did rather well on the domestic marriage market, would this boy be any different? Or would he have to wait until (if) his father succeeds as king? TBH, I could perhaps see a marriage between him and one of his half-cousins (the dauphin was close to the dowager Princesse de Conti and Princesse de Condé) taking place. Or would that be a stretch?

Likewise, if he has daughters (OTL he had three bastard daughters around the time of the marriage, one in 1694, one in 1695 and one in 1697) what options would be open for them? A convent (like many of the princesse de Condé's daughters)? Or could they have a more substantial role? And if the little duc d'Anjou gets left all alone in 1715, would having closer relatives than OTL (I read that part of Louis XV's whole personality was he sought the cosy domestic atmosphere that he had been denied in his childhood), make a difference in his development (i.e. an aunt/uncle who can step in to the void left by his parents/grandfather?)
 
Okay, so inserting this boy in the succession is unlikely - if not impossible. But, let's take the existence of this kid to start with. Would he be recognized at court as the son of the dauphin? Sort of 'open secret' type? And also, Louis XIV's bastard kids did rather well on the domestic marriage market, would this boy be any different? Or would he have to wait until (if) his father succeeds as king? TBH, I could perhaps see a marriage between him and one of his half-cousins (the dauphin was close to the dowager Princesse de Conti and Princesse de Condé) taking place. Or would that be a stretch?

Likewise, if he has daughters (OTL he had three bastard daughters around the time of the marriage, one in 1694, one in 1695 and one in 1697) what options would be open for them? A convent (like many of the princesse de Condé's daughters)? Or could they have a more substantial role? And if the little duc d'Anjou gets left all alone in 1715, would having closer relatives than OTL (I read that part of Louis XV's whole personality was he sought the cosy domestic atmosphere that he had been denied in his childhood), make a difference in his development (i.e. an aunt/uncle who can step in to the void left by his parents/grandfather?)

Any eventual child of the Grand Dauphin second wedding would be legitimized by letters patent, just like Henri IV's and Louis XIV's, then get the full "quasi prince" treatment : titles (duc d'Auvergne ? Comte de Champagne ? Mademoiselle de Rouen ?), then peerages (duchy of Angouleme, duchy of Alençon ?), then outranking of the dukes and peers, then right of succession to the crown after the princes of the blood. Parliament would complain.

The french royal family, like the english one, had no limits on "equality" of spouses. Marrying quasi-princes is no problem, even for the ones closest to the throne (Philippe d'Orleans married Louis XIV's bastard daughter).
 
Any eventual child of the Grand Dauphin second wedding would be legitimized by letters patent, just like Henri IV's and Louis XIV's, then get the full "quasi prince" treatment : titles (duc d'Auvergne ? Comte de Champagne ? Mademoiselle de Rouen ?), then peerages (duchy of Angouleme, duchy of Alençon ?), then outranking of the dukes and peers, then right of succession to the crown after the princes of the blood. Parliament would complain.

The french royal family, like the english one, had no limits on "equality" of spouses. Marrying quasi-princes is no problem, even for the ones closest to the throne (Philippe d'Orleans married Louis XIV's bastard daughter).

I like the sound of duc d'Auvergne and Mademoiselle de Rouen. You say parlement would complain, but would it be possible to insert these (male) children into the succession, if they were for all intents and purposes little more than bastards. And while 1711 is a long way off, what future would there be for them if their father never becomes king (and thus unable to enact these things)? Quasi-princes most likely, outranking the dukes and peers. But would they be promoted to the peerage? Were Maine or Toulouse ever granted such honours? I'm not sure which of their plethorae of titles were peerages and which not.
 
I like the sound of duc d'Auvergne and Mademoiselle de Rouen. You say parlement would complain, but would it be possible to insert these (male) children into the succession, if they were for all intents and purposes little more than bastards. And while 1711 is a long way off, what future would there be for them if their father never becomes king (and thus unable to enact these things)? Quasi-princes most likely, outranking the dukes and peers. But would they be promoted to the peerage? Were Maine or Toulouse ever granted such honours? I'm not sure which of their plethorae of titles were peerages and which not.

I had made a long and detailed post and the machine ate it...

  1. Succession rights : only precedent is the concession of Charles IX to the Longueville, naming them princes of the blood. Given the refusal to register from Parliament, a weak ground for any push in this direction.
  2. Intermediate rank : no problem, plenty of precedents outside the royal family (d'Epernon, Joyeuse, Bouillon).
  3. Peerages/Titles : this is the kind of needlessly complicated things we love the Ancien Regime for. In the royal family, everyone is given a title at birth, even before a first name. Any title can go, but usually it was one of the former principalities in the royal demesne. Being titled as such did not imply any kind of possession : neither grandson of Louis XIV was actually the Duke of Burgundy, Anjou or Berry. These titles were personnal and could not be pass on to heirs. At their coming of age, the young princes were given special estates from the royal demesne called apanages, with some duchies and counties (for example the future Charles X, titled count of Artois, was duke of Angouleme and Berry and count of Poitiers and Ponthieu). These estates were given the rank of peerage, but it was merely a label, as the territorial privileges of an apanage were far more extended than the ones of a regular peerage and the princes were already "born peers", peers by birth only. The succession was limited to male line only. The King could also gift anyone, including a royal bastard, with an estate from the royal demesne under the legal fiction of a mortgage. The mortgaged estate could even be upgraded to a peerage, with all regular privileges. There was even a grey area around the royal demesne estates in the hand of a bastard line : while definitely not apanages, they were not simple mortgaged estates, and their rules of succession were male-line only. Until Louis XIV, bastards had no "princes titles", only regular estate titles. These ones were needed in order to have a rank at court and an inheritance to pass on. For example, the transfer of the County of Eu, the Duchy of Aumale and the principality of Dombes to Maine was all-important for Louis XIV. All three lordships had never been part of the royal demesne, so no mortgages issue, but they brought a high rank : Eu was an old peerage (the king could always "restore" a peerage to a higher precedence), Dombes a semi-sovereign principality. Even if the new king was very ill disposed towards Maine, he would not have any opprtunity to strip him or his sons of these titles.
 
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