WI: Louis II Jagiellon Survives and Sires a Heir?

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
As we all know, the Battle of Mohacs ended with a crushing Ottoman victory, led to the death of Louis II and ended Bohemian, Hungarian and Croatian Independence for nearly 400 years (460 for Croatia).

But what if Louis survived Mohacs? I know for a fact that even with his survival Hungary is still screwed. But what of Bohemia? Ferdinand I, the Holy Roman Emperor would be unable to claim it, and Louis still claims the title of King of Hungary. Would the battle for Hungary become a three way conflict between Bohemia, the Ottoman Turks and the Holy Roman Empire?
 
As we all know, the Battle of Mohacs ended with a crushing Ottoman victory, led to the death of Louis II and ended Bohemian, Hungarian and Croatian Independence for nearly 400 years (460 for Croatia).

But what if Louis survived Mohacs? I know for a fact that even with his survival Hungary is still screwed. But what of Bohemia? Ferdinand I, the Holy Roman Emperor would be unable to claim it, and Louis still claims the title of King of Hungary. Would the battle for Hungary become a three way conflict between Bohemia, the Ottoman Turks and the Holy Roman Empire?

No, Ferdinand can not claim neither crown or title but he will surely support his double brother-in-law's claim.
 
As we all know, the Battle of Mohacs ended with a crushing Ottoman victory, led to the death of Louis II and ended Bohemian, Hungarian and Croatian Independence for nearly 400 years (460 for Croatia).

But what if Louis survived Mohacs? I know for a fact that even with his survival Hungary is still screwed. But what of Bohemia? Ferdinand I, the Holy Roman Emperor would be unable to claim it, and Louis still claims the title of King of Hungary. Would the battle for Hungary become a three way conflict between Bohemia, the Ottoman Turks and the Holy Roman Empire?

I don't know where you get your info but Bohemia/Croatia/Hungary was no less independant during the early Habsburg years than during the previous period. It wasn't until the second half of the 17th century that the Habsburgs started to centralise power and constrict local autonomy.

Croatia from 1102 to 1918 was in more or less the same situation, a kingdom joined with other countries in the person of the ruler with various levels of autonomy depending on the situation.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
I didn't know about that little tidbit about Bohemia and Hungary maintaining their autonomy under the Hapsburgs...I always assumed that it wasn't the case after 1526.

So now that I know that Ferdinand can't claim Hungary, how would the situation with Louis work out. In his predicament he would be both a vassal of the Ottomans (through Hungary) and swear fealty to the HRE (through Bohemia). How would he and his successors (With the Opening Title stating he would sire an heir) be able to deal with this?
 
As we all know, the Battle of Mohacs ended with a crushing Ottoman victory, led to the death of Louis II and ended Bohemian, Hungarian and Croatian Independence for nearly 400 years (460 for Croatia).

But what if Louis survived Mohacs? I know for a fact that even with his survival Hungary is still screwed. But what of Bohemia? Ferdinand I, the Holy Roman Emperor would be unable to claim it, and Louis still claims the title of King of Hungary. Would the battle for Hungary become a three way conflict between Bohemia, the Ottoman Turks and the Holy Roman Empire?

Uhm, lets clear things up a bit.

Bohemian, croatian and hungarian independence simply could not interpreted at that point and in ATL.
Actually, those states could (!) viewed as independent states at least until the napoleonic wars.

However, for hungary the loss of the battle was bad, but the real screw came from the loss of the king. Because OTL, after the battle an internal civl war broke out, 2 pretenders, 2 external powers involved etcetcetc.

This scenario, if the king survives and sires a heir certeanly would not lead to a 3 way conflict (Bohemia, HRE,OT). Louis would be still the king of Bohemia and king of Hungary, in the later case with much fewer troublesome nobles (most of them probably still dies in the battle, the ones did not participated in it would have taken a blame for the loss, they would be discredited to nobodies), Ferdinand would have no legal claim to either of the thrones and if he tries to take any of it in force, i could see a hungarian-bohemian-turk alliance against him (OTL, Suleiman requested passage for his forces against Ferdinand) - but i could not see, why he would do that?
 
I didn't know about that little tidbit about Bohemia and Hungary maintaining their autonomy under the Hapsburgs...I always assumed that it wasn't the case after 1526.

So now that I know that Ferdinand can't claim Hungary, how would the situation with Louis work out. In his predicament he would be both a vassal of the Ottomans (through Hungary) and swear fealty to the HRE (through Bohemia). How would he and his successors (With the Opening Title stating he would sire an heir) be able to deal with this?

Vassal status would be problematic: Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia simply too big for a turkish-style vassal state, if we view Moldavia as a sample. So, the turks probably get payments, could force a treaty they like, but thats all.

HRE-Ferdinand-Louis relations would be more tricky i think: Louis would have to defend the borders, but after Mohács... well, even if he still have the intetntion, the forces he would lack alone... sooo... the next time the ottomans want to go against ferdinand, he either step aside (according to the likely treaty with them) causing serious friction with Ferdinand or he break the treaty, but only if the imperial troops are at his disposal.
He would not make the same stunt twice.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Ah, But I dunno. I would expect Suleiman to exact very unfavorable terms to Hungary. (Probably for example, the loss of Nándorfehérvár/Belgrade and the rest of Hungarian Serbia, as well as the loss of Transylvania to the Ottoman Turks)

In any case, would we see a Louis II who would be concerned of regaining the territories back, now that many of the nobles who were against him are now dead or discredited?
 
Ah, But I dunno. I would expect Suleiman to exact very unfavorable terms to Hungary. (Probably for example, the loss of Nándorfehérvár/Belgrade and the rest of Hungarian Serbia, as well as the loss of Transylvania to the Ottoman Turks)

In any case, would we see a Louis II who would be concerned of regaining the territories back, now that many of the nobles who were against him are now dead or discredited?


Nándorfehérvár was already in ottoman hands, of course, legalizing it in a treaty never a bad thing. Serbia was already firm in ottoman hands some half a century ago already. If you mean Bácska/Szerémség/Vajdaság its pretty much out of question, along with Transylvania. Not after one lost battle, no matter how devastating it was. No, i see no larger scale land grabbing, payments, terms regarding military operations against ferdinad/HRE, peace and non agression, certain fortifications have to be destroyed, handed over, and i have to think about it and have to check the original demands and the demands on Szapolyai.

And yes, we would see a Louis very angst to get the territories back, troublesome nobles or not.
The death and discredit of the nobles would have helped Louis in centralization and strenghtening his own power base (like: new nobles, new high clergy, some of the old laws abolished, etc).
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Well I suppose that means even with a disaster like Mohacs, Louis still keeps some lands in Hungary and Croatia. A continuation of the Ottoman-Hungarian Wars in any event.
 
Well I suppose that means even with a disaster like Mohacs, Louis still keeps some lands in Hungary and Croatia. A continuation of the Ottoman-Hungarian Wars in any event.

He keeps pretty much everything. Well, OTL Suleiman did not conquered anything.
Yapm and a continuation of the Ottoman-Hungarian wars, with a big gap in the middle in it, and without the direct involvement of the HRE... Suleiman got it right at the start, dragged into the wars after did not do any good for the ottoman empire.
 
@ kalamona: Ferdinand would not have a good claim ITTL. And Ferdinand trying to claim one of the kingdoms (or both), most likely Bohemia (though th then childless Vladislaus II had made promises to the Habsburg regarding Hungary) would be problematic and unlikely, besides that would require Ferdinand getting the full support of his brother Charles V too. That in turn could lead to France seizing this opportunity. All in all too unlikely and the Habsburgs and Hungary-Bohemia will remain allies (how warm those relations are, probably varies though)against their common Ottoman enemy; still the Austrian Habsburg will still have the ambition to 'restore'* Hungary and Bohemia to their house. (*= both the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs were from the Leopoldine (iirc Inner Austrian) branch, the last Habsburgs to have held those thrones were from the Albertine branch)

Such a scenario could lead to a somewhat different division of the Habsburg lands, maybe ITTL Ferdinand could also inherit the Burgundian circle. IOTL the Burgundian circle passing to the Austrian Habsburgs by marriage was considered, when Maximilian II (eldest son of Ferdinand) married Mary (eldest daughter of Charles V).
 
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Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Except weren't the Hapsburg lands already divided at this point (in theory)? Since Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, already ruled over Burgundy and Spain while his younger brother Ferdinand (the future HRE) ruled as Archduke of Austria?
 
Except weren't the Hapsburg lands already divided at this point (in theory)? Since Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor, already ruled over Burgundy and Spain while his younger brother Ferdinand (the future HRE) ruled as Archduke of Austria?

Yes, since 1521 Ferdinand governed the Habsburg Austrian hereditary lands (in part to give him a better prospect on a possible inheritance of Hungary and Bohemia in the future).
Also another reason for such a division was the difference in inheritance system, according to Spanish and Burgundian law the eldest son was the heir, whereas in the Austrian* and German* areas the inheritance traditionally was divided. In fact originally Charles V was entitled to Tyrol and Further Austria (if the Hereditary lands would have been split), but it was decided to keep the Hereditary lands intact. (*= anachronistic I know, at the there wasn't such distinction)
Technically Charles V as a Habsburg was still an archduke of Austria (but not ruling over that territory) and the Spanish branch kept listing it in their titles.

So any territorial exchange TTL, probably faces similar considerations like IOTL. Still IMHO ITTL they might have a better change at succeeding.
 
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