WI: Louis, Duc d'Orléans Survives?

Louis de Valois, duc d'Orléans was the only surviving brother of Charles VI (and rumoured lover of his sister-in-law, Isabeau of Bavaria-Ingolstadt). In 1407, Louis was murdered by Jean sans Peur, duke of Burgundy.

How he survives is open to question. It could be that he never takes the route he did OTL, it could be that he delays leaving. It could be that he kills the attacker that split his skull open, and as such, he is injured but not dead. Or any other possibility - like the assassins decided got hungry/bored/tired/cold (its Paris in December).

Either way, Orléans lives but the question is if Jean sans Peur is safe from retaliation? Will the Burgundians try again? How would this affect French government of the day?

@Zulfurium @jeandebueil @VVD0D95 @isabella
 
Louis de Valois, duc d'Orléans was the only surviving brother of Charles VI (and rumoured lover of his sister-in-law, Isabeau of Bavaria-Ingolstadt). In 1407, Louis was murdered by Jean sans Peur, duke of Burgundy.

How he survives is open to question. It could be that he never takes the route he did OTL, it could be that he delays leaving. It could be that he kills the attacker that split his skull open, and as such, he is injured but not dead. Or any other possibility - like the assassins decided got hungry/bored/tired/cold (its Paris in December).

Either way, Orléans lives but the question is if Jean sans Peur is safe from retaliation? Will the Burgundians try again? How would this affect French government of the day?

@Zulfurium @jeandebueil @VVD0D95 @isabella
My favorite period!
Orleans would probably try to secure Paris. Depending on how fast everyone is able to act I could see Orleans as regent in France with support from the queen. Open conflict would probably break out earlier than OTL however, I am not sure if Charles (Louis' son) would marry into the Armagnac family or one of his royal cousins. Furthermore, is to note that Orleans was more antagonistic towards England than the Burgundians. This alone wouldn't necessarily lead to war but I could see Jean sans peur approaching Henry IV for an alliance. I am not sure how he would react though. Prince Hal would probably push for it though.
 
I agree with @Dr.Evil, I think if Louis survives, he's going to make moves for Paris, and then is going to try and deal with the Burgundians in a manner he thinks is appropriate.
 
I agree with @Dr.Evil, I think if Louis survives, he's going to make moves for Paris, and then is going to try and deal with the Burgundians in a manner he thinks is appropriate.
I guess he would try to cut off Jeans funds and attack his lands. Louis would be in a very strong position with his brother in a state of madness and his nephews underage. Tying the Dauphin to himself would be key so I could see marry his son Charles to princess Isabelle like in OTL. If she doesn't die during childbirth this would tie the heir of Orleans closely to the next king. As regent he could also marry of the other daughters of the king to his supporters, thus isolating de Bourgogne. All in all Louis was in a pretty good spot and its easy to see why Jean sans peur had him killed.
 
I guess he would try to cut off Jeans funds and attack his lands. Louis would be in a very strong position with his brother in a state of madness and his nephews underage. Tying the Dauphin to himself would be key so I could see marry his son Charles to princess Isabelle like in OTL. If she doesn't die during childbirth this would tie the heir of Orleans closely to the next king. As regent he could also marry of the other daughters of the king to his supporters, thus isolating de Bourgogne. All in all Louis was in a pretty good spot and its easy to see why Jean sans peur had him killed.
Aye though he’d also need to have some of the girls marry abroad no?
 
Aye though he’d also need to have some of the girls marry abroad no?
Well have to I dont know.. He could probably use them to seal some alliances but I guess using them to build up a tight royal faction under his control seems the smarter move here. Most important would probably be to just not let the Burgundians have one.

Another option would maybe be to offer an alliance to Henry IV and sweeten it with a royal marriage? Maybe invest Henry of Monmouth with the title Duke of Aquitaine or something and call the 100 Years War a draw? I am not really sure what Henry IV intentions were regarding France but if he makes peace with the French in a long-lasting way it will be difficult for his son to start the war again later on. Of course this would probably avert the War of the Roses and change things in France e.g. the brothers of the Duke of Burgundy probably live longer as would Henry V
 
Wouldn't Orléans arranging marriages for the kids require him to be in possession of the rugrats to start with? And wasn't Burgundy the one with custody of at least two - the dauphin (who would marry Burgundy's daughter) and Michelle (who would marry Burgundy's son)?

I know little Kate de Valois was living in abject squalour at the hôtel de St-Paul, and Jeanne was already in Brittany as duchess. Tourain was already in the Netherlands wasn't he? So that's the whereabout of five accounted for.
Just future Charles VII, Marie (prioress) and the queen of England (Isabelle) to be accounted for.
 
Wouldn't Orléans arranging marriages for the kids require him to be in possession of the rugrats to start with? And wasn't Burgundy the one with custody of at least two - the dauphin (who would marry Burgundy's daughter) and Michelle (who would marry Burgundy's son)?

I know little Kate de Valois was living in abject squalour at the hôtel de St-Paul, and Jeanne was already in Brittany as duchess. Tourain was already in the Netherlands wasn't he? So that's the whereabout of five accounted for.
Just future Charles VII, Marie (prioress) and the queen of England (Isabelle) to be accounted for.
I think it would still be relatively easy for Orleans to get his hands on the Dauphin once he is in power. However, you are right I thought the Burgundian double wedding happened only after Orleans death but it was already in 1409. This could definitely pose a problem. If Louis Duke of Guyenne lives longer he would probably start to break free from his uncles - this could even things out. But if he feels threatened by Orleans this would directly guide him into the arms of Jeans Sans Peur.

So the Dauphin Louis de Guyenne flees to Dijon while his uncle stays in Paris and keeps to rule for his father. I think this could lead to civil war - however, what would the other branches do? OTL they usually tried to carve out their own domains..
 
I think it would still be relatively easy for Orleans to get his hands on the Dauphin once he is in power. However, you are right I thought the Burgundian double wedding happened only after Orleans death but it was already in 1409. This could definitely pose a problem. If Louis Duke of Guyenne lives longer he would probably start to break free from his uncles - this could even things out. But if he feels threatened by Orleans this would directly guide him into the arms of Jeans Sans Peur.

So the Dauphin Louis de Guyenne flees to Dijon while his uncle stays in Paris and keeps to rule for his father. I think this could lead to civil war - however, what would the other branches do? OTL they usually tried to carve out their own domains..
Of course, Jean sans Peur's actions could always lead to the opposite reaction. If Jean is controlling, attempts to "micromanage" his son-in-law with a "father knows best" attitude that could lead to Guyenne preferring independence/Orléans, no?
 
I have an idea, not sure how plausible it is though. What if Charles d'Orléans (poet and progenitor of all kings of France after Charles VIII) were to to be travelling with his dad when they're attacked. Charles winds up dead, Louis ends up wounded, but survives?
 
I have an idea, not sure how plausible it is though. What if Charles d'Orléans (poet and progenitor of all kings of France after Charles VIII) were to to be travelling with his dad when they're attacked. Charles winds up dead, Louis ends up wounded, but survives?
That's going to be a fascinating shit storm
 
Could have interesting effects since the comte de Vertus would be heir-apparent. The comte de Vertus was probably one of the more competent sons of Louis d'Orléans IIRC, and at the time, was engaged to Catherine de Bourgogne, sister of the dauphine.

Obviously this engagement would be broken. But it could have interesting effects to see what Vertus gets up to
 
Vertus was also one of the biggest supporters of the dauphin (Charles VII) and held the confidence of Charles, who felt his loss very keenly. And Vertus' death had a detrimental effect on the party of the dauphin
 
Could have interesting effects since the comte de Vertus would be heir-apparent. The comte de Vertus was probably one of the more competent sons of Louis d'Orléans IIRC, and at the time, was engaged to Catherine de Bourgogne, sister of the dauphine.

Obviously this engagement would be broken. But it could have interesting effects to see what Vertus gets up to
Okay, so retcon, the engagement between Vertus and the dauphine's sister was only after the murder took place (in 1413), which means Vertus is still footloose and fancy-free at the time of the POD. Now, if we wanna be boring, we can just shoehorn him into a marriage with the dowager queen of England or Bonne d'Armagnac, but I suspect his father will have more say over where he marries (as opposed to Charles, who was marrying to suit himself AIUI).
 
If Louis were to survive, and Valentina Visconti were to die as OTL, would he remarry? Who?
He still has a surviving son, so maybe he'd go for love instead of a marriage alliance? That did happen sometimes, although I see it more happening in the High Middle Ages. It seems to happen to Dukes more than Kings, although that might be due to the fact I have a longer list of Windower dukes than kings...
 
He still has a surviving son, so maybe he'd go for love instead of a marriage alliance? That did happen sometimes, although I see it more happening in the High Middle Ages. It seems to happen to Dukes more than Kings, although that might be due to the fact I have a longer list of Windower dukes than kings...
What about his son's OTL second wife, Bonne d'Armagnac? It FORCES us to find a new wife for the comte de Vertus thne
 
What about his son's OTL second wife, Bonne d'Armagnac? It FORCES us to find a new wife for the comte de Vertus thne
Yeah that's true. I guess a good marriage might be with some other noble family in France (as opposed to say... the Holy Roman Empire)? Which one, I'm not actually sure.
 
Yeah that's true. I guess a good marriage might be with some other noble family in France (as opposed to say... the Holy Roman Empire)? Which one, I'm not actually sure.
Well, Bonne is also granddaughter of the duc de Berri, niece of the late queen of Aragon, etc etc.

As for Vertus, maybe a Navarrese infanta (niece of the queen of England, sister to the queen of Navarre-Aragon) for him? Alternately, there was a match with a girl from the Blois-Châtillon family discussed, but the girl died before she could make it to the church on time
 
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