WI: Lost Roman Colony on Lake Chad

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

So this needs a couple things to be explained first:

1) The Garamentes were a advanced ancient civilization located in what is now southern Libya. Although they were located in the middle of the Sahara Desert, their civilization was able to flourish by using slaves to dig deep wells and access ground water beneath the Saharan Desert. Because of this, they had numerous small cities throughout the central Saharan Desert that lasted until the 6-7th century when their wells began to dry up.

Garamantes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2) During the late stages of the Roman Republic/early Roman Empire, the Garamantes frequently raiding the Roman province of Africa. In 19 BC, the Romans under Lucius Cornelius Balbus would actually invade the Garamantes Kingdom, and even went on to apparently explore Sub-Saharan Africa:

Lucius Cornelius Balbus (proconsul) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

- So it would seem that the Romans had the ability to travel to Sub-Saharan Africa, but for one reason or another, permanent annexation of the Garamantes wasn't considered.

- So, let's say the Garamantes are permanently annexed and incorporated into the Roman Empire. This in turn, leads to trade with Sub-Saharan Africa. Is it possible that a power hungry Roman general takes his legion into Africa and permanently conquers the area around Lake Chad and settles the area with his legion? Then as the wells in the Garamantes Kingdom dry up, the Roman settlement loses contact with Europe, but survives as a Afro-Roman Kingdom?

 

[Schnozzberry]

I'll confess that Ancient History is far from my forté, but I remember reading that Rome did launch an expedition that left a garrison on Lake Chad. It doesn't seem like anything significant came of it IOTL, but that could be the start of something. With such a long distance and a relatively difficult journey between Rome's core African territories and Lake Chad, I can't imagine a "Chad Province" would be heavily Romanized though and after the breakup it might just lead to the rise of an alt-Kanem Empire rising a few centuries earlier than a Romano-African state.

 

[Nivek]

Is lake chad a meme now?

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

I'll confess that Ancient History is far from my forté, but I remember reading that Rome did launch an expedition that left a garrison on Lake Chad. It doesn't seem like anything significant came of it IOTL, but that could be the start of something. With such a long distance and a relatively difficult journey between Rome's core African territories and Lake Chad, I can't imagine a "Chad Province" would be heavily Romanized though and after the breakup it might just lead to the rise of an alt-Kanem Empire rising a few centuries earlier than a Romano-African state.

A Legion plus families at the least ten thousand Romans. Add Roman/Greek merchants, scholars, workers/slaves, and political/religious refugees escaping Roman civil wars/persecution, and we could see a very sizable Roman population over time as long as it doesn't automatically intermarry the local African population early on. It would also be interesting to see how a Roman Christian state in Africa would interact with Arab expansion/trade with Africa after losing contact with Europe.

Is lake chad a meme now?

I don't understand this comment.

 

[sampleswift]

A Legion plus families at the least ten thousand Romans. Add Roman/Greek merchants, scholars, workers/slaves, and political/religious refugees escaping Roman civil wars/persecution, and we could see a very sizable Roman population over time as long as it doesn't automatically intermarry the local African population early on. It would also be interesting to see how a Roman Christian state in Africa would interact with Arab expansion/trade with Africa after losing contact with Europe.



I don't understand this comment.

Chad and Lake Chad have become memes due to the "virgin chad" meme...
I'm not sure whether that Afro-Roman Kingdom would last tbh. Changing climate/losing that water supply could ruin the kingdom?

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Chad and Lake Chad have become memes due to the "virgin chad" meme...
I'm not sure whether that Afro-Roman Kingdom would last tbh. Changing climate/losing that water supply could ruin the kingdom?

I don't really think the lake Chad area became negatively affected by Climate change until relatively recently.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

How would the Romans rule over the native Sao culture in the area? Would they be the first civilization to introduce race based chattel slavery?

Also, how would Roman engineering, knowledge, and military tactics affect the history of SubSaharan Africa?

 

[AmericanAdam]

Imagine European colonists in the 19th century entering the Lake Chad region and encountering an isolated group of Jupiter-worshipping natives

 

[TerenceofGod]

If a large enough Greeco-Latin population settled near Chad it would enslave a large number of the tribes on its path, but the others would migrate themselves away from the invaders. If they expand further they may encounter some proto-states or tribal confederations that have banded together to protect themselves against the Romans.

The Romans would need at the very least about 200 years to be able to solidify control over Chad and expand across Africa until it reaches a coast or subjugating the African people around them. The lack of navigable waterways would severely hamper expansion from Chad though.

 

[Tibi088]

Why the hell people suppose that romans would change they way slavery worked in the mediterranean for centuries just because they were in Africa? Rome actually had black people but they had same opportunity as everyone else. The roman society was much more open than other - and i specifically mean greek polis - ancient societies.

They would use the same model as at home: they would enslave some of the natives some of whom would be freed ower time and romanization. Than they would be integrated in to society after that as freed man - and im less sure about this but their descendants as simple romans.
The other source of integrating locals to the roman society would be by the use of the auxiliary forces - service there would end in gaining citizenship.

Being roman was more than anything else a legal term. And one of the greatest adventage of Rome was its ability to integrate and assimilate the people it conquered. By the time the europeans get there and if there is still something to discover the local roman state would most likely consist near purely of black people (maybe with a great number of somewhat ligther skinned populace than the surranding) and speaking a form of latin. Im sceptical if they would still worhip the old gods - but i dont think they would change to local tribal gods - either they develope a new faith for themselves or Islam. What could be still unique to them is their culture, their written archives and their cities, and probably a senate. But most likely political developments happened that make whatever survivor state exists be near completly unrecognizable as Rome.

 

[Droman]

The problem with any roman settlement leading to a post-roman state is that the Roman Empire doesn't seem to have had a sustainable rural-to-urban ratio. A lot of their cities in Britannia for example couldn't have lasted following the collapse of social order and foreign garrisons, and I don't think a Lake Chad situation would be too much different, if it ever got far enough away from a few villas and slave plantations into an actual city.

 

[[totally a legit person]]

Perhaps Roman Chad could see itself becoming a place of great trade importance, West Africa was home to both salt, which was worth it's weight in gold, and gold itself. If this colony could lead to a earlier form of the West African Salt and Gold trades, along with other valuable resources, and its being relatively close enough to the rich soil of North Africa, to be supplied quite easily, the Romans would likely trade luxury goods and food for it. This could lead to a trade-city being founded after some decades of conquest, as the Garamantes, other West African peoples, and both Latin and Hellenic traders immigrate to it. As with every other Roman conquest everywhere, the locals would likely move there seeking greater opportunities, and over a few generations, mix in with the Romans, and become more culturally and linguistically Roman, like the Berbers of North Africa were. Perhaps over a long period of time, many small client kingdoms could've formed out of the trade with Rome, these kingdoms would've likely become Romanized to an extent, several small local campaigns could be launched to increase control, the Romans could leave quit impact in West Africa.

 

[Duke of Orlando]

At best I think you’d get an Indo Greek kingdoms situation. A small but significant amount of European settlers with a highly romanized local population that effects the art, architecture, and culture of the local region more drastically than it has any right to before dying an inevitable death. Which would be cool. I think cultural fusions like that often result in some of the most interesting artistic results of the time. You could get some very interesting statues and mosaics down there that might even last to modern day depending on what happens to the area.

Unfortunately I don’t think you’d get the lasting presence I think you’re looking for. I mean at some point some African kingdom will rise and topple them post collapse. Assuming the colony even remains Roman till that point and isn’t cut loose earlier as a money sink. Wether it be in 50 years or 500 the AfroRoman kingdom will fall to someone bigger and badder. And at that point they’ll become a tiny minority that disappears within a few generations like the Indo Greeks did. Maybe, and I feel like the boundaries of probability are being stretched paper thin by this thought, they might last as a distinct African group with a very Latin flavored local language.

 

[Tibi088]

At best I think you’d get an Indo Greek kingdoms situation. A small but significant amount of European settlers with a highly romanized local population that effects the art, architecture, and culture of the local region more drastically than it has any right to before dying an inevitable death. Which would be cool. I think cultural fusions like that often result in some of the most interesting artistic results of the time. You could get some very interesting statues and mosaics down there that might even last to modern day depending on what happens to the area.

Unfortunately I don’t think you’d get the lasting presence I think you’re looking for. I mean at some point some African kingdom will rise and topple them post collapse. Assuming the colony even remains Roman till that point and isn’t cut loose earlier as a money sink. Wether it be in 50 years or 500 the AfroRoman kingdom will fall to someone bigger and badder. And at that point they’ll become a tiny minority that disappears within a few generations like the Indo Greeks did. Maybe, and I feel like the boundaries of probability are being stretched paper thin by this thought, they might last as a distinct African group with a very Latin flavored local language.

The big difference is that the greeks tried not to mix with the 'barbarians' and remained separate enclaves in their cities. The romans OTOH would try to assimilate and integrate the locals - the path to become romans would be hard but it would be open for the locals.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

I'm skeptical about Romans granting citizenship to native Africans. Perhaps at first but as time goes on and the African-Roman civilization loses contact with Europe, giving the majority native Africans citizenship would be political suicide for the ruling elites who no longer have the military support of the empire

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

Also what would be the impact on sub saharan African warfare/tactics/technology?

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

The problem with any roman settlement leading to a post-roman state is that the Roman Empire doesn't seem to have had a sustainable rural-to-urban ratio. A lot of their cities in Britannia for example couldn't have lasted following the collapse of social order and foreign garrisons, and I don't think a Lake Chad situation would be too much different, if it ever got far enough away from a few villas and slave plantations into an actual city.

The native ancient Sao culture was made up of small city states in otl as well as the neighboring Hausa.

 

[Practical Lobster]

As someone mentioned, there's a lot of trade goods the Romans can access across the Sahara. But why do they need a significant military presence?

The premise that a "power hungry" Roman general would try to occupy the Lake Chad region makes sense only in a relatively specific window of history where military conquests abroad would translate into political capital back home. And we also need a general who somehow decides that marching across a vast, inhospitable desert in force is a better and more desirable prize than say, Asia. And decides to do so with no provocation - while peoples in North Africa could raid, no one from Lake Chad is traveling north in numbers to provoke the Romans to war.

And we need to understand why the Romans want to stay. They can accomplish trade through intermediaries. Lake Chad is far away and unlike most Roman conquests, not connected to anything else by water. Instead long attenuate caravan routes are necessary, vulnerable to raids and dust storms and thirst. And then the Romans who arrive there are in a totally alien part of the world, far from the rest of their Empire, far from the massive logistical machine that supplies their equipment and grain and animals, and in all probability heavily outnumbered by the indigenous people, who aren't exactly going to roll over, but would previously have been happy to trade gold and salt and other commodities northwards at good rates.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

As someone mentioned, there's a lot of trade goods the Romans can access across the Sahara. But why do they need a significant military presence?

The premise that a "power hungry" Roman general would try to occupy the Lake Chad region makes sense only in a relatively specific window of history where military conquests abroad would translate into political capital back home. And we also need a general who somehow decides that marching across a vast, inhospitable desert in force is a better and more desirable prize than say, Asia. And decides to do so with no provocation - while peoples in North Africa could raid, no one from Lake Chad is traveling north in numbers to provoke the Romans to war.

And we need to understand why the Romans want to stay. They can accomplish trade through intermediaries. Lake Chad is far away and unlike most Roman conquests, not connected to anything else by water. Instead long attenuate caravan routes are necessary, vulnerable to raids and dust storms and thirst. And then the Romans who arrive there are in a totally alien part of the world, far from the rest of their Empire, far from the massive logistical machine that supplies their equipment and grain and animals, and in all probability heavily outnumbered by the indigenous people, who aren't exactly going to roll over, but would previously have been happy to trade gold and salt and other commodities northwards at good rates.

Perhaps the region becomes a safe haven for political exiles and Roman generals/legions who lose during a power struggle/civil war.

 

[pattontank12]

For some reason this is reminding me of the novel "Man who would be King".