WI: Lord Nelson vs de Ruyter

Nelson vs de Ruyter

  • Lord Nelson

    Votes: 17 43.6%
  • Michiel de Ruyter

    Votes: 22 56.4%

  • Total voters
    39
Lets take Horatio Nelson and transport him back in time to the Anglo-Dutch Wars of the 17th century. Nelson will face off against famed Dutch admiral Michiel de Ruyter. Who will win? :eek:
 
This goes into the ASB subforum.

For sure. But on the topic, who can doubt Horatio Nelson, the Briton who singlehandedly defeated the entire continent of Europe and saved the world from the French language and escargots. Besides, he has the biggest, tallest, straightest column.
 
While I voted Nelson the reality is the battle would be determined as much, if not more so, by the quality of the officers and crews rather than the Admiral's tactical abilities.

And that's where Nelson has a serious chance of falling down. Simply put, the Anglo-Dutch wars largelly predate the increasing 'professionalisation' of the RN officer corp... the navy list and testing for promotions up the ranks between Midshipman and Captain only really developed following the early disasters of the 2nd Anglo-Dutch war.

At the same time during the 17th century it was standard for the fleet to stand up for the campaigning season then be laid up for winter; unlike in Nelson's era when it was capable of maintianing blockading squadrons active for years and at sea for months at a time. This in turn has implications on the level of experiance and the performance of the crews... look at the difference in performance between the British (at sea most of the time) and French (largelly blockaded in port) sailors during the Napoleonic wars by way of example.

So, Nelson with late 18th century officers and sailor, even with 17th century ships will kick arse. Nelson with what's at hand in the 1660-80s would be fighting on a much more level playing field, and so has every chance of having one of his underlings f*** things up.
 
While I voted Nelson the reality is the battle would be determined as much, if not more so, by the quality of the officers and crews rather than the Admiral's tactical abilities.

And that's where Nelson has a serious chance of falling down. Simply put, the Anglo-Dutch wars largelly predate the increasing 'professionalisation' of the RN officer corp... the navy list and testing for promotions up the ranks between Midshipman and Captain only really developed following the early disasters of the 2nd Anglo-Dutch war.

At the same time during the 17th century it was standard for the fleet to stand up for the campaigning season then be laid up for winter; unlike in Nelson's era when it was capable of maintianing blockading squadrons active for years and at sea for months at a time. This in turn has implications on the level of experiance and the performance of the crews... look at the difference in performance between the British (at sea most of the time) and French (largelly blockaded in port) sailors during the Napoleonic wars by way of example.

So, Nelson with late 18th century officers and sailor, even with 17th century ships will kick arse. Nelson with what's at hand in the 1660-80s would be fighting on a much more level playing field, and so has every chance of having one of his underlings f*** things up.

Very good info thank you.:D
 
it's interesting to match up these two up, considering they both died bravely in battle and were arguably the greatest naval commanders of their times.
 
the dutch guy is before my period of interest, so I don't know him, but...

Nelson had the extreme advantage of being commander of the only competent navy at the time. Other nations had ships, but no one had competent sailors/commanders but Britain. It was basically shooting fish in a barrel for him. what really made Nelson a hero was having Napoleon (a non sailor) force 2 commanders, who knew the effort was doomed, go out and face certain defeat. With or without Nelson and advanced tactics, France and Spain were doomed to failure. Nelson had a master stroke (aided wonderfully by Nappy) to finish them off in a grand battle, but if Nelson died in 1804, France and Spain still lose the naval war.

With a competent foe, do his tactics work so well? Or, have him born at an earlier time. Does he still develop what would be advanced tactics? Is it his mind that you want time transported, or his tactics?
 
the dutch guy is before my period of interest, so I don't know him, but...



With a competent foe, do his tactics work so well? Or, have him born at an earlier time. Does he still develop what would be advanced tactics? Is it his mind that you want time transported, or his tactics?

I think i was going for his mind, in this case.

On another note if your interested in learning of de Ruyter's great exploits start with these. The second one is quiet epic.:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Days'_Battle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_the_Medway
 
I'm not very knowledgable about naval warfare.

However, looking at the three most important naval battles of Michiel de Ruyter and Trafalgar, which is all I know about Nelson, Michiel was more outnumbered than Nelson was in his battles (which I gave a cursory glance, might have missed a few) and still won all three of them, so I'm inclined to give Ruyter the benefit of the doubt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Solebay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Schooneveld

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Texel
 
:)
I'm not very knowledgable about naval warfare.

However, looking at the three most important naval battles of Michiel de Ruyter and Trafalgar, which is all I know about Nelson, Michiel was more outnumbered than Nelson was in his battles (which I gave a cursory glance, might have missed a few) and still won all three of them, so I'm inclined to give Ruyter the benefit of the doubt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Solebay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Schooneveld

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Texel

thanks for putting these up. One thing i will note is that, though i prefer Ruyter, at the latter 2 battles Ruyter was up against Prince Rupert the calvaryman who was not exactly the greatest admiral.
 
Nelson: "England today expects ever man to do his duty and vote for me"

icon14.gif
 
Obviously the Dutch guy. Nelson is used to naval technology 200 years ahead of what he's being forced to work with in this scenario.
 
Top