WI: Lombards conquer ALL of Italy

[Adora Basil Winterpock]

Let’s say Alboin isn’t murdered, and after taking Pavia in 572 the Lombards siege and capture the Byzantine holdout of Ravenna. Rome is next and the rest of the peninsula quickly follows. By 600, all of Italy is united under Alboin.
What does this mean for Europe?

 

[NotAMyth]

Let’s say Alboin isn’t murdered, and after taking Pavia in 572 the Lombards siege and capture the Byzantine holdout of Ravenna. Rome is next and the rest of the peninsula quickly follows. By 600, all of Italy is united under Alboin.
What does this mean for Europe?

How are they countering the Roman Navy? It was like air support in those times.
Big part of why the Romans managed dominate the whole Mediterranean post the Vandalic War. The absence of this force would have massive repercussions, and make a huge difference in what the fall in Roman Italy would mean for Europe.

 

[Neoteros]

The Lombards would still assimilate into wider post-Roman society rather quickly; their legacy however might lead to Italy following a similar historical path to France, that of a state whose history as a coherent unit headed by one king dates back to the Early Middle Ages, despite the endless disputes between the crown and the feudal/local level. However, from a cultural standpoint, it would resemble southern France much more than northern France: here, standard Italian might mean a language not that dissimilar from OTL Lombard (but closer to OTL standard Italian, due to the influences from the rest of the peninsula) with an orthography based on Provençal rather than French or (in OTL's Canton Ticino) German.

Quote from Bonvesin de la Riva for reference:

«In nom de Jesu Criste e de Santa Maria
quest'ovra al so onor acomenzadha sia:
ki vol odir cuintar parol de baronia,
sì olza e sì intenda per soa cortesia.

Odir e no intende negata zovarave
e ki ben intendesse anc negata farave
ki no metess in ovra so k'el intenderave:
o l'om no mett lo cor e l'ingegn nient vare.

In questo nostro libro da tre guis è scrigiura:
la prima sì è negra e è de grand pagura
la segonda è rossa, la terza è bella e pura

pur lavoradha a oro ke dis de grand dolzura.»

As you can see, there's a distinct Occitan flavour to it, due to the cultural influence of the old troubadours - not only he wrote his Liber di Tre Scricciur before Dante, it was a direct influence on the Divine Comedy, that can be considered its improved remake/sequel - an influence that wouldn't go away in this ATL at all.

 

[kasumigenx]

The Lombards would still assimilate into wider post-Roman society rather quickly; their legacy however might lead to Italy following a similar historical path to France, that of a state whose history as a coherent unit headed by one king dates back to the Early Middle Ages, despite the endless disputes between the crown and the feudal/local level. However, from a cultural standpoint, it would resemble southern France much more than northern France: here, standard Italian might mean a language not that dissimilar from OTL Lombard (but closer to OTL standard Italian, due to the influences from the rest of the peninsula) with an orthography based on Provençal rather than French or (in OTL's Canton Ticino) German.

Quote from Bonvesin de la Riva for reference:



As you can see, there's a distinct Occitan flavour to it, due to the cultural influence of the old troubadours - not only he wrote his Liber di Tre Scricciur before Dante, it was a direct influence on the Divine Comedy, that can be considered its improved remake/sequel - an influence that wouldn't go away in this ATL at all.

They are talking about Germanic lombards.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

Big thing is gonna be that they've stripped all temporal power from the pope- leaving him without any authority to crown emperors also means that the imperial title stays in the east.

 

[Adora Basil Winterpock]

The Lombards would still assimilate into wider post-Roman society rather quickly; their legacy however might lead to Italy following a similar historical path to France, that of a state whose history as a coherent unit headed by one king dates back to the Early Middle Ages, despite the endless disputes between the crown and the feudal/local level. However, from a cultural standpoint, it would resemble southern France much more than northern France: here, standard Italian might mean a language not that dissimilar from OTL Lombard (but closer to OTL standard Italian, due to the influences from the rest of the peninsula) with an orthography based on Provençal rather than French or (in OTL's Canton Ticino) German.

Quote from Bonvesin de la Riva for reference:



As you can see, there's a distinct Occitan flavour to it, due to the cultural influence of the old troubadours - not only he wrote his Liber di Tre Scricciur before Dante, it was a direct influence on the Divine Comedy, that can be considered its improved remake/sequel - an influence that wouldn't go away in this ATL at all.

Would Lombard Italy be strong enough to remain united and independent do you think or would Charlemagne + the Arabs divide it later on

How are they countering the Roman Navy? It was like air support in those times.
Big part of why the Romans managed dominate the whole Mediterranean post the Vandalic War. The absence of this force would have massive repercussions, and make a huge difference in what the fall in Roman Italy would mean for Europe.

They’re not, but they manage to conquer the Byzantine strongholds on land. Maybe the Byzantines are distracted somewhere else, or just give up on Italy after losing it so soon to another germanic tribe after the Gothic war. I imagine the Byzantines would continue to harass Italy from the sea, and probably hold on to Sicily.

 

[LordKalvan]

Would Lombard Italy be strong enough to remain united and independent do you think or would Charlemagne + the Arabs divide it later on

Charlemagne would be butterflied away by a complete Lombard conquest of Italy, and different interests in the Byzantine empire might even stop an Arab invasion.
It's difficult to say what might happen, it's going to depend on how long Alboin lives, and if the succession is disputed or not.
The Lombards would assimilate even more quickly, and most likely convert to Catholicism. If the royal power is strong, as it might be after a long reign of Alboin and an undisputed succession, the kingdom of Italy might endure.

 

[raharris1973]

Would early political centralization in a Kingdom be good or bad for agricultural, technological, and cultural development and growth on the peninsula relative to OTL?

If the Lombard Italian Kingdom becomes and remains a consolidated unit earlier than west or east Francia, might it project power for a portion of the medieval period north of the Alps?

Is the Pope/Bishop of Rome just like this Italian King's Archbishop of Canterbury or Patriarch of Moscow?

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

and probably hold on to Sicily.

That is a given, Sicily was the single most important acquisition in the West after Carthage, but unlike Africa it remained in roman hands for much longer (and could have remained roman with the right POD). It was so important that between Constantinople and Syracuse there was no intermediary (a Praetorian Prefect) instead it was ruled directly from the centre.

Is the Pope/Bishop of Rome just like this Italian King's Archbishop of Canterbury or Patriarch of Moscow?

Probably a pawn of the Lombard king, during their best time maybe something like the Patriarch of Constantinople during the XI century. To let the roman Bishop acquire even more power, especially outside of Italy, would allow the establishment of dangerous international ties that could pose a threat to Pavia. Think of it as the Roman Senate during the VI century and its tense relationship with the Goths (due to dubious loyalty), except now with the entirety of Christian Europe.

 

[raharris1973]

Charlemagne would be butterflied away by a complete Lombard conquest of Italy, and different interests in the Byzantine empire might even stop an Arab invasion.
It's difficult to say what might happen, it's going to depend on how long Alboin lives, and if the succession is disputed or not.
The Lombards would assimilate even more quickly, and most likely convert to Catholicism. If the royal power is strong, as it might be after a long reign of Alboin and an undisputed succession, the kingdom of Italy might endure.

Probably a pawn of the Lombard king, during their best time maybe something like the Patriarch of Constantinople during the XI century. To let the roman Bishop acquire even more power, especially outside of Italy, would allow the establishment of dangerous international ties that could pose a threat to Pavia. Think of it as the Roman Senate during the VI century and its tense relationship with the Goths (due to dubious loyalty), except now with the entirety of Christian Europe.

So basically, yes. If the Kingdom of Italy is up, the Pope is down

their legacy however might lead to Italy following a similar historical path to France, that of a state whose history as a coherent unit headed by one king dates back to the Early Middle Ages, despite the endless disputes between the crown and the feudal/local level.

I see two doors ahead for Italy and Europe -

Through door #1 later foreign wars and foreign invasions and gross fragmentation weaken and break the cohesion of Lombard Italy as the cohesion of Visigoth Italy was broken, and there is a chance for something somewhat like OTL's multiple powers, city-states, and the medieval papacy to arise.

Through door #2 the Lombard Kingdom of Italy endures, Italy follows the historical path of France, the Bishop of Rome is the creature of the King of Italy in Pavia, Ravenna, Rome, Firenze, or wherever. The absence of any equivalent to OTL's Papacy if a HUGE divergence. It's Caesaro-papism and Church subordinate to Emperors and Kings everywhere, everybody is Orthodox, east and west. There's probably less of a bar to using vernaculars for church affairs in later centuries. Missionizing is probably far less intense, except where it directly coincides with existing Christian states diplomatic interests. You'll have individual missionaries, and monastic missionaries like the Irish-based ones and others, but not the Rome-Papacy centered global missionary effort. Paganism can survive longer in central, northern, and Eastern Europe.

 

[Elfwine]

I think there's a third thing here, and IMO more likely than #2:

Italy stays united like France, but that does not make the Kings such strong figures that they can make the Pope fully under their control all the time.

A fair period of French history is with "united" and "one King", but not "the King is crushingly dominant in his kingdom.", I'm not sure the Lombards are all that likely to achieve a more absolute monarchy than other kings here.

So far as Popes go - even if we're looking at the situation in Constantinople, there were Patriarchs who wielded and asserted considerably more power than "Your wish is my command, my Emperor." despite Emperors trying to treat the Church as a department of the state that they had a much tighter grasp on than western kings did over their states. Several Emperors got into rather serious disagreements over the lands and wealth of the church, for example. Or we have (in the 13th century) the Arsenite Schism as a headache for the Emperor - sure, he could remove the Patriarch, but not compel the Church to fall entirely in line with all his wishes.

And not exactly for lack of interest in it.