WI Local Roman Catholic Archdioceses declare indpendence from Rome?

In medieval times the Archdiocese of Milan used the example of Cyprus Church in order to become more independent from Rome by claiming Apostle Barnabas as founder (Cyprus Church claimed in 5th century that it was founded by Apostle Barnabas too in order to get rid of the supremacy of the Patriarchate of Antioch)
WI More Archdioceses followed Cyprus and Milan's example and become independent from Rome during medieval times (by claiming an Apostle as their founder...)? How is that altering History? Any thoughts? Could this had fractured Catholic Church into numerous local "Patriarchates"?
 
If this happens we could see a Pope in Rome and many different "minor" Popes in Western Europe... Aetius had made a failed attempt to erect a "Patriarchate" in Lutetia independent from Rome in mid 5th century...
Spanish Archbishops could claim Apostolic foundation for example... Sacred Tradition accepts that Apostle Paul went to Hispania following his release from Rome... English Bishops could claim that too since Tradition says that Apostle Simon the Zealot preached to the Saxons and Picts in Britain... South Gaul Bishops could claim foundation from St. Lazarus (the one who got resurrected by Jesus... although a legend but forgeries happened frequently in Middle Ages...)
 
If this happens we could see a Pope in Rome and many different "minor" Popes in Western Europe... Aetius had made a failed attempt to erect a "Patriarchate" in Lutetia independent from Rome in mid 5th century...
Spanish Archbishops could claim Apostolic foundation for example... Sacred Tradition accepts that Apostle Paul went to Hispania following his release from Rome... English Bishops could claim that too since Tradition says that Apostle Simon the Zealot preached to the Saxons and Picts in Britain... South Gaul Bishops could claim foundation from St. Lazarus (the one who got resurrected by Jesus... although a legend but forgeries happened frequently in Middle Ages...)

Well, one way to get that work would be that every country has its own Papacy/national archbishopric - i.e. the retention of an Avignon Papacy, for example, or something like the Churches of England or Scotland (yes, the CoS is Presbyterian, but if we're going for national Papacies/archbishoprics, the CoS could have a shot at it).
 
Well, one way to get that work would be that every country has its own Papacy/national archbishopric - i.e. the retention of an Avignon Papacy, for example, or something like the Churches of England or Scotland (yes, the CoS is Presbyterian, but if we're going for national Papacies/archbishoprics, the CoS could have a shot at it).

Actually not every country... Only Sees that were founded by Apostles may claim independence... Cyprus for example was founded by Apostle Barnabas and invoked that fact during IV Ecumenical Council in order to get rid of the supremacy of the Patriarchate of Antioch... This complexes things a bit...
Example: If Spanish Church proclaims independence under the "Pope of Tarracona" lets say on the grounds that the Church was founded by Apostle Paul its jurisdiction would have included Portugal too since Portuguese Church wasnt founded by an Apostle it would have been subordinate to the Spanish "Pope"...So instead for one Pope for all West u have various Popes covering parts of the West...
 
Hmm, I guess you could make a case for the Archdiocese of Venice, Italy - apparently it was founded by St Mark.
 
Hmm, I guess you could make a case for the Archdiocese of Venice, Italy - apparently it was founded by St Mark.

WRONG!!! The Patron Saint of Venice was till 828 AD St. Theodore... But because he is a "lesser" saint compared to St. Mark (whose relics were stolen and brought to Venice from Alexandria in 828) Venetians replaced him with St. Mark... An Apostle and Evangelist is more prestigious than St. Theodore... St. Mark never set foot (alive) in Venice...
 
WRONG!!! The Patron Saint of Venice was till 828 AD St. Theodore... But because he is a "lesser" saint compared to St. Mark (whose relics were stolen and brought to Venice from Alexandria in 828) Venetians replaced him with St. Mark... An Apostle and Evangelist is more prestigious than St. Theodore... St. Mark never set foot (alive) in Venice...

Never knew that - CCD class surely deprived me of A LOT!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Thanks. Oh, and check your PM box.
 
This could end up leading to a more, rather than a less, united Church. If the West is splintered among the various Patriarchs, each dominated by its own petty king, then the Patriarch in Constantinople, where the Roman Emperor lives, is probably going to end up emerging as the leader of the Christian world. I foresee a Church where the tradition of Councils remains strong, as the various patriarchs of the Christian world (East and West) meet to make united policy.

I don't think any German cities could claim the Apostle thing, so you might end up seeing a really strong alliance between the Bishop of Rome (still claiming supremacy over all Christiandom) and the King of Germany (soon to be Holy Roman Emperor). The Pope and Emperor each view the other as a means to the end of extending their dominion, and so the German Emperors aid the Roman Popes in subjugating the petty kings of the West, and forcing them and their "Patriarchs" to accept spiritual rule from Rome, and political rule from Germany.
 
Would the Holy Roman Emperor for example accepted that his Church (the German Archbishoprics/Bishoprics) to be subordinate to the nearest Pope/Patriarch (in this case it might be Milan) who can claim Apostolic foundation?
I think that no King/Emperor would allow an outsider dictating his domestic policies... He might forge something to have one of his Archbishops elevated as Pope... Forgeries were a common thing in medieval times...
 
Would the Holy Roman Emperor for example accepted that his Church (the German Archbishoprics/Bishoprics) to be subordinate to the nearest Pope/Patriarch (in this case it might be Milan) who can claim Apostolic foundation?

The King of Germany wouldn't accept this, that's why I'm postulating an alliance between the Bishop of Rome and the King of Germany, exchanging the Imperial Crown and Papal blessing for German support of making real Roman claims of religious supremacy.

Since OTL the Kings of Germany (and later Holy Roman Emperors of the German Nation) battled for centuries for control of Northern Italy. I see an alliance between the King of Germany (who wants to break the power of Lombard City-States) and the Bishop of Rome (who wants to break the power of the pretender-Patriarch of Milan) as natural. In this alliance, I don't think the King of Germany would be giving up any control that he exercises over the German Church, he is simply pledging the German Church's loyalty to the Bishop of Rome. Now later you may have conflicts, but with the history of a weak Papacy (the broken Church is going to be a big issue) I think a western version of Caesar-papism is the likely outcome.

I think that no King/Emperor would allow an outsider dictating his domestic policies... He might forge something to have one of his Archbishops elevated as Pope... Forgeries were a common thing in medieval times...
With the natural alliance I see between the Bishop of Rome and the King of Germany, I don't see this as becoming an issue. After all, by forgoing the forgery, the King of Germany can make a bid for Universal Empire, as the secular leader of Christiandom.

What is the time frame your looking at this for? Because if the Western Church breaks apart early, this is going to have very interesting effects on Western history. The breaking of the Western Church is probably going to quickly lead to schismatic theology, which will make reunification via council more difficult, and reunification via force more likely.

I really don't see the Western Church breaking this way, because I think the secular leadership lacked the kind of continuity and stability that I think was required to take on the very powerful organization the Church managed to develop.
 
One thing you could always have happen is for church organisations to be established through (fictional or real) genalogy of foundation. The English Church is under Rome because St Augustine was sent by the pope, the Irish Church is under - Gaul? because St Patrick studied there, the German archdioceses are fought over between the two, the Catholic Balkans are under MIlan...
 
One thing you could always have happen is for church organisations to be established through (fictional or real) genalogy of foundation. The English Church is under Rome because St Augustine was sent by the pope, the Irish Church is under - Gaul? because St Patrick studied there, the German archdioceses are fought over between the two, the Catholic Balkans are under MIlan...

Actually English Church would claim her independence through Apostle Simon the Zealot... (An Apostle of Christ is kinda more prestigious than a Papal envoy...) Gaul would claim independence through St. Lazarus... Milan from St. Barnabas... Every Church has to prove that they were founded by a disciple of Christ to claim independence...
 
Actually English Church would claim her independence through Apostle Simon the Zealot... (An Apostle of Christ is kinda more prestigious than a Papal envoy...) Gaul would claim independence through St. Lazarus... Milan from St. Barnabas... Every Church has to prove that they were founded by a disciple of Christ to claim independence...

Ah, right. Who needs real history :)

But it will still be interesting to start tracing the descent of lesser churches and find out who they should be under once papal primacy is gone. I mean, what about Norway? Do the missionaries from Bremen or from York claim the kill?
 
Ah, right. Who needs real history :)

But it will still be interesting to start tracing the descent of lesser churches and find out who they should be under once papal primacy is gone. I mean, what about Norway? Do the missionaries from Bremen or from York claim the kill?

Actually Norway/Danemark etc. they cant trace Apostolic foundation as i recall... So they would be under jurisdiction of the nearest Church with Apostolic foundation... England perhaps????
 
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