WI: Lines of Valois, ~Orléans, ~Burgundy and ~Anjou Last an Extra Century

The first of the cadet branches of the title to go was the Burgundian branch of the Valois with the death of Charles the Bold (he left no son, so the line died with his daughter). The next to go was Valois-Anjou, in the person of the Comte du Maine. The hopes of the Angevins had reposed previously in Nicolas, duke of Lorraine and Calabria, but he had died in 1473. The main line of the Valois males died out with Charles VIII bumping his head on a door. And let's throw in the senior line of Valois-Orléans which died with Louis XII in 1515.

Now, all these lines are individually interesting, but the truth of the matter was that when François Ier succeeded as king, his heir was first the duc d'Alençon and then a prince of Bourbon. So (much as I like the Bourbons that are surnamed le Grand; and le Regent isn't all-bad), what if there are male-line Valois heirs to Burgundy (maybe not Burgundy senior line, let's throw the Habsburgs a bone, so perhaps the dukes of Brabant or the counts of Nevers have surviving legitimate male descent) or Lorraine lying around? How would things be different if the main line of the house of Valois were to stay on the throne because Charles Orland or his dad survive? Would the Bourbons remain provincial players? Or would they still be able to claw their way into power?

I understand this would require some multiple PODs or a very strong butterfly net, but I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think.
 
Well John II Count of Nevers was Charles the Bold's cousin once removed (ie Cousin to Duke Phillip III) and he lived to 1491 after Charles's death.
A son for him should enable a Valois Burgundy under his line.
 
Well John II Count of Nevers was Charles the Bold's cousin once removed (ie Cousin to Duke Phillip III) and he lived to 1491 after Charles's death.
A son for him should enable a Valois Burgundy under his line.
I think we can have John II's son Philip survive and marry Mary of Burgundy.

I think he can steal burgundian inheritance from Mary and the Habsburgs, if the son is born at a later pod.
 
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This is a greatly overlooked PoD, and one that would make for a... messy Europe. The anjou and the Burgundians are the most "interesting" owing to their vast inheritance. The anjou can claim not only Lorraine and Provence but also Naples, Jeusalem, Hungary and Aragon. Burgundy, of course, needs little explanation.
 
The first of the cadet branches of the title to go was the Burgundian branch of the Valois with the death of Charles the Bold (he left no son, so the line died with his daughter). The next to go was Valois-Anjou, in the person of the Comte du Maine. The hopes of the Angevins had reposed previously in Nicolas, duke of Lorraine and Calabria, but he had died in 1473. The main line of the Valois males died out with Charles VIII bumping his head on a door. And let's throw in the senior line of Valois-Orléans which died with Louis XII in 1515.

Now, all these lines are individually interesting, but the truth of the matter was that when François Ier succeeded as king, his heir was first the duc d'Alençon and then a prince of Bourbon. So (much as I like the Bourbons that are surnamed le Grand; and le Regent isn't all-bad), what if there are male-line Valois heirs to Burgundy (maybe not Burgundy senior line, let's throw the Habsburgs a bone, so perhaps the dukes of Brabant or the counts of Nevers have surviving legitimate male descent) or Lorraine lying around? How would things be different if the main line of the house of Valois were to stay on the throne because Charles Orland or his dad survive? Would the Bourbons remain provincial players? Or would they still be able to claw their way into power?

I understand this would require some multiple PODs or a very strong butterfly net, but I'd be interested in hearing what you guys think.

The butterflies of sons of either Charles the Bold or Jean de Lorraine are very potent. Jean was at the time of his death pretty much controlling Catalonia. A France+Burgundians lands or a France+Crown of Aragon would be such a major player in Europe it would affect pretty much everything coming after 1470.

If you have only junior princes of the cadet lines to survive (ie Charles d'Anjou, count of Maine and Jean de Bourgogne, Count of Nevers), the only difference is the personnality of the king. They both held only minor holdings and were denied the larger inheritance of the senior lines (Naples, Lorraine and the Netherlands principalities permitted female line inheritance and the Kings confiscated the apanages of Burgundy and Anjou). Louis d'Orléans and his cousin of Angoulême had the claim to Milan to spice things up a little, but their principality is not so large it would make a difference.

If any line of the Valois survived, the Bourbon can only be a noble, if rebellious, house. They did not have the imperial fiefdoms which allowed the Burgundy to play they own game. As the heart of their possessions are royal apanages, they are very vulnerable to a confiscation by a strong-willed king.
 
The butterflies of sons of either Charles the Bold or Jean de Lorraine are very potent. Jean was at the time of his death pretty much controlling Catalonia. A France+Burgundians lands or a France+Crown of Aragon would be such a major player in Europe it would affect pretty much everything coming after 1470.

If you have only junior princes of the cadet lines to survive (ie Charles d'Anjou, count of Maine and Jean de Bourgogne, Count of Nevers), the only difference is the personnality of the king. They both held only minor holdings and were denied the larger inheritance of the senior lines (Naples, Lorraine and the Netherlands principalities permitted female line inheritance and the Kings confiscated the apanages of Burgundy and Anjou). Louis d'Orléans and his cousin of Angoulême had the claim to Milan to spice things up a little, but their principality is not so large it would make a difference.

If any line of the Valois survived, the Bourbon can only be a noble, if rebellious, house. They did not have the imperial fiefdoms which allowed the Burgundy to play they own game. As the heart of their possessions are royal apanages, they are very vulnerable to a confiscation by a strong-willed king.
Jean de Lorraine's son Nicholas can marry Isabella of Castile instead of ferdinand.
 
Jean de Lorraine's son Nicholas can marry Isabella of Castile instead of ferdinand.
Nicholas was bethroted to Anne, Louis XI's daughter. As his father needed the royal support, I do not see him walking away from the marriage (plus Anne was a terrific regent and would made an excellent queen).
 
Nicholas was bethroted to Anne, Louis XI's daughter. As his father needed the royal support, I do not see him walking away from the marriage (plus Anne was a terrific regent and would made an excellent queen).
But Nicholas can marry Isabella in 1467/1468 in that scenario one of Louis XI's daughters marry a son of Isabella and Nicholas instead.
 
But Nicholas can marry Isabella in 1467/1468 in that scenario one of Louis XI's daughters marry a son of Isabella and Nicholas instead.

That would be a bold move from Isabella, since in 1468, Nicholas is just the son of a pretender who control only part of Catalonia. And, by marrying his son to Isabella, said pretender would lose the support of his main sponsor. After some years of fighting (with Dunois and the french army at his side), John of Lorraine could be crowned King of Aragon and his son would become a more interesting groom. Maybe La Beltraneja ? A kind of reverse-Iberian wedding ?
 
That would be a bold move from Isabella, since in 1468, Nicholas is just the son of a pretender who control only part of Catalonia. And, by marrying his son to Isabella, said pretender would lose the support of his main sponsor. After some years of fighting (with Dunois and the french army at his side), John of Lorraine could be crowned King of Aragon and his son would become a more interesting groom. Maybe La Beltraneja ? A kind of reverse-Iberian wedding ?

I'd be interested in that. Fernando & Isabel, while awesome, are so often regarded as the ONLY couple who could unify Spain, when in fact, they were only of several (various OTL matches between Castilian and Aragonese cousins; and the prospective matches thrown around: Isabel to Carlos of Viana (there was briefly talk of her wedding Gaston de Foix, prince of Viana after Carlos died IIRC), Fernando to La Beltraneja; Enrique, duke of Segorbe to la Beltranjeja (as part of a double match between Fernando and Isabel)). Would love to see a different Spain emerging under La Beltraneja+Nicolas or Isabel+a surviving Carlos of Viana.
 
Well John II Count of Nevers was Charles the Bold's cousin once removed (ie Cousin to Duke Phillip III) and he lived to 1491 after Charles's death.
A son for him should enable a Valois Burgundy under his line.

I was wondering if perhaps a son for Burgundy-Brabant. I know it's a bit further back, but Philippe, duke of Brabant was betrothed to Yolande d'Anjou (OTL duchess of Brittany), however, he died before the marriage took place. Since she only had daughters by her Breton husband, I don't necessarily think allowing her to marry into Brabant would necessarily change too much, would it?

I think we can have John II's son Philip survive and marry Mary of Burgundy.

I think he can steal burgundian inheritance from Mary and the Habsburgs, if the son is born at a later pod.

The idea is for the Habsburgs to still get Burgundy by marrying Marie, just not to get all of the Low Countries.

The butterflies of sons of either Charles the Bold or Jean de Lorraine are very potent. Jean was at the time of his death pretty much controlling Catalonia. A France+Burgundians lands or a France+Crown of Aragon would be such a major player in Europe it would affect pretty much everything coming after 1470.

If you have only junior princes of the cadet lines to survive (ie Charles d'Anjou, count of Maine and Jean de Bourgogne, Count of Nevers), the only difference is the personnality of the king. They both held only minor holdings and were denied the larger inheritance of the senior lines (Naples, Lorraine and the Netherlands principalities permitted female line inheritance and the Kings confiscated the apanages of Burgundy and Anjou). Louis d'Orléans and his cousin of Angoulême had the claim to Milan to spice things up a little, but their principality is not so large it would make a difference.

If any line of the Valois survived, the Bourbon can only be a noble, if rebellious, house. They did not have the imperial fiefdoms which allowed the Burgundy to play they own game. As the heart of their possessions are royal apanages, they are very vulnerable to a confiscation by a strong-willed king.

Would it necessarily be France plus Burgundy/Aragon if Nicolas or Charles were to survive? Both of them spent a lot of time fighting with the Crown, so would their survival mean that those two realms turn their eyes on Paris?

Nicholas was bethroted to Anne, Louis XI's daughter. As his father needed the royal support, I do not see him walking away from the marriage (plus Anne was a terrific regent and would made an excellent queen).

Anne as queen of Aragon could always make for more interesting times. Especially since she was basically an uncrowned queen regnant of France during her regency (which admittedly was not without its problems). Could ensure that Aragon is pro-French for a while. I wonder if Castile would turn anti-French in reaction to this?

I'd be interested in that. Fernando & Isabel, while awesome, are so often regarded as the ONLY couple who could unify Spain, when in fact, they were only of several (various OTL matches between Castilian and Aragonese cousins; and the prospective matches thrown around: Isabel to Carlos of Viana (there was briefly talk of her wedding Gaston de Foix, prince of Viana after Carlos died IIRC), Fernando to La Beltraneja; Enrique, duke of Segorbe to la Beltranjeja (as part of a double match between Fernando and Isabel)). Would love to see a different Spain emerging under La Beltraneja+Nicolas or Isabel+a surviving Carlos of Viana.

I'll have you know that for my TL, The Red Princess, I considered letting La Beltraneja marry Fernando, instead of her aunt. However, I unfortunately don't know enough about La Beltraneja's personality to be able to write how her reign as Queen of Castile would progress. Would it be similar to Isabel? Completely different. And also, I wasn't entirely sure what I'd do with Isabel in that case. I guess she could always die before wedding Fernando, but it seemed a bit cruel to kill both her and her brother. If her mom was nuts before that, she'd sure probably go completely mad with grief afterwards.
 
I was wondering if perhaps a son for Burgundy-Brabant. I know it's a bit further back, but Philippe, duke of Brabant was betrothed to Yolande d'Anjou (OTL duchess of Brittany), however, he died before the marriage took place. Since she only had daughters by her Breton husband, I don't necessarily think allowing her to marry into Brabant would necessarily change too much, would it?
Interesting.
Alternatively perhaps kill off his older brother before his marriage to Jacqueline of Hainaut, he'd then marry her and might prove a better husband. Any child of theirs has claim to Brabant, Limburg, Hainaut, and Holland!
 
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