WI Liberation of Paris Not "Whites Only"

Well, the AMGOT has been presented as this great horror that De Gaulle was supposed to have saved France from but when we look at things a bit it became clear that it wouldn't have been too different in its operations and consequences then the provisional government was :p

Well it would have been different : The American would been in charge :p
 
Well it would have been different : The American would been in charge :p

Yes, for 8 months, and they wouldn't have done anything massively different then what De Gaulle did in RL in the meantime, and it wasn't like the US didn't have allot of influence during that time period either :p Bad for the ego, yes, but in term of real consequences it would have been minimal. Like in other countries elections would have been organised upon Germany surrender and everything will have went back in order.
 
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One of the greatest leaders of the 20th century. Saved France from civil war, rescued France from the Algerian situation, restored French grandeur and prestige, ensured that France stayed a democracy, and played a critical role in the creation of the EU. Also, despite his hauter, a good and honorable man. I would advise reading about his relationship to his daughter Anne de Gaulle who had down syndrome, it is very heart-warming.

This. Plus kept France from being in a subordinate position to any other nations.
 

CalBear

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I can imagine the French gathering all there troops and going in alone with the Americans being furious that they were ignored.
Followed shortly by the French army suddenly experiencing a 90% reduction in fuel, ammunition and ration delivery.
 
Followed shortly by the French army suddenly experiencing a 90% reduction in fuel, ammunition and ration delivery.

And hopefully that would be ultimately followed by France and Britain banding together to form an alternative to America, something like that rather good Anglo-French EU TL I read around here a while ago...
 

CalBear

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And hopefully that would be ultimately followed by France and Britain banding together to form an alternative to America, something like that rather good Anglo-French EU TL I read around here a while ago...
Uh huh.

The British had, possibly, even less love for deGaulle, than the U.S. at this point in the war. There were plenty of staff officers at SHAEF, both Americans and British, would would have passed out cigars if some mishap had overtaken deGaulle. Of course this was entirely reasonable since deGaulle seemed to find the Americans and British about as loathsome as finding half a worm in an apple you are eating.
 
And hopefully that would be ultimately followed by France and Britain banding together to form an alternative to America, something like that rather good Anglo-French EU TL I read around here a while ago...
The British were invading France. From a purely nationalistic point of things, they would have been having a blast. No use for them to ruin it by becoming half-French. Then again, it would mean the U.S. would have a backup hat.
 
Imho, I think De Gaulle's reputation has been inflated by both sides. Yes, he did keep an independent France (sort of) in the fight, and he was instrumental in keeping a french identity alive. And, post war, he was vital to the reconstruction of France. But he was not the absolutely vital "omg must have or else" figure that he was made to be; others (like Leclerc) could have replaced him.

But he was not as stuborn and as dificult to work with as the UK and US made him to be. He was fighting, not just to end the germans, but to rebuild France's reputation and moral, in the eyes of the world. While the US/UK saw the french as little more than anoying cannon fodder. Both countries have quite a few examples of being too stuborn for their own good...
 
The British were invading France. From a purely nationalistic point of things, they would have been having a blast. No use for them to ruin it by becoming half-French. Then again, it would mean the U.S. would have a backup hat.

I meant long-term - not then and there, but a decade or so down the road. I was thinking more of an American cutting-off of aid to an ally as being a 'warning sign' to Britain that might go with other happenings later on that encourage them and France to work at being more 'allied but separate'.
 
Thats buying far too much into the De Gaulle mythos, neither France power nor prestige has even come close to what it was before 1940 and the allies would have organised elections after the war was over.
Of course, de Gaulle was not a miracle worker. In realistic terms, France had diminished due to the defeat. But de Gaulle played a critical role in keeping France a great power, which was by no means inevitable, by careful leveraging of French diplomatic strength post-war. Sure, some of the post-war arrangements were due to gifts from the allies - such as arriving onto the UN Security Council as a permanent member - but de Gaulle would carefully limit the way in which he joined and interacted with international institutions to prevent it from being treated as a junior member, such as refusing to meet with Roosevelt after Yalta for a report on the conference, and only accepting being allowed into San Francisco as a full great power member, and refusing to accept agreements, even beneficial one, that treated France as not being a great power of equal rank, which conversely meant that it required French participation in institutions like the European Advisory Commission and the Control Commission from Yalta, since not having France in it - while simultaneously partially involving them, such as in the occupation of Germany - would be absurd. De Gaulle played vital roles behind the scenes in emphasizing that while France's material capabilities were limited, France still commanded immense respect, prestige, and moral power, and emphasized the influence France had over the smaller powers. During the war, the military actions helped to keep the French forces in the spotlight and gain valuable diplomatic capital. Yes, it wasn't all de Gaulle, but he did play a key diplomatic role in enhancing France's position in the post-war era. Then during the second stint in power in the 1960s he built up the status of France as an independent party with its own nuclear weapons and a strong continuing role in Africa, which continues to, alongside the European branch of thought, constitute the main assets that France deploys as a great power.

Concerning elections, conversely a civil war at some point - either post-war, or 1958, or 1961 - was a possibility. De Gaulle played a role by virtue of his prestige and of his savvy political maneuverings to keep this from happening, especially with Algeria.

Uh huh.

The British had, possibly, even less love for deGaulle, than the U.S. at this point in the war. There were plenty of staff officers at SHAEF, both Americans and British, would would have passed out cigars if some mishap had overtaken deGaulle. Of course this was entirely reasonable since deGaulle seemed to find the Americans and British about as loathsome as finding half a worm in an apple you are eating.

Conversely, while the British might not have loved de Gaulle himself, the British were far more friendly towards France than the Americans. It was the British who were responsible for putting the French onto the UN Security Council post war, the British who were the strongest voice for French interests at Yalta, and the British who were probably the most reliable partner for the French among the Big Three in helping to elevate France to a great power.

Simple dislike about the French leader among the British military says little about British policy towards France.

Now, an Anglo-French EU was impossible for other reasons, the British operated in a different medium of economics - they had been invited to join various economic organizations both after the war and pre-war that were the core of what would be the later EU, but rejected them, most critically in the case of both the pre-war International Steel Cartel and in the post-war European Coal and Steel Community - but it wasn't due to British opposition to the French government.
 
And hopefully that would be ultimately followed by France and Britain banding together to form an alternative to America, something like that rather good Anglo-French EU TL I read around here a while ago...

Really your going to play the bad Americans are not needed now so they can go home and I am guessing take their equipment with them. I feel safe in saying Britain would not join France. If the US and Britain did a organized Dunkirk France, all of Europe actually would be under German occupation then Russian.
 

CalBear

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Really your going to play the bad Americans are not needed now so they can go home and I am guessing take their equipment with them. I feel safe in saying Britain would not join France. If the US and Britain did a organized Dunkirk France, all of Europe actually would be under German occupation then Russian.
Actually it would just take the U.S. deciding to say FU.

Via Lend/Lease

The British received over 280,000 trucks from the U.S., with the French receiving 27,000+ after D-day
The British received over 1.5 million rifles from the U.S. (along with 650,000 .38 revolvers, 39,000 .45 pistols and 650,000 .45 sub guns), with the French receiving 19,000+ after D-day (and an additional 19,000+ .45 pistols and 20,000+ .45 sub-guns)
The British received ~28,000 tanks from the U.S., with the French receiving 1,400+ after D-day.

This is not to indicate, in any way, that the British and Free French did not do considerable fighting (or that the British/Commonwealth didn't produce huge numbers of weapons on their own), but simply to point out that telling the U.S. to screw off in 1944 would have had the most dreadful of consequences. The French received pretty much everything to equip their forces from the U.S. (including just under 2 million pair of under-drawers).
 
Terms like "Arrogant", "Rude", "Ungrateful", "Delusions of Godhood" come to mind.

From my dad, who was in the French Foreign Legion '39 to 10 June '44 "Just another Colonel, nothing special".

Holy hell I can think of so many questions I'd like to ask if you're inclined...

Where did he serve?
Where was he from?
Did he end up in a Vichy regiment or a Free French one?
Where did/did he fight?
Why did he join the Legion?
What was it like?
 
Of course, de Gaulle was not a miracle worker. In realistic terms, France had diminished due to the defeat. But de Gaulle played a critical role in keeping France a great power, which was by no means inevitable, by careful leveraging of French diplomatic strength post-war. Sure, some of the post-war arrangements were due to gifts from the allies - such as arriving onto the UN Security Council as a permanent member - but de Gaulle would carefully limit the way in which he joined and interacted with international institutions to prevent it from being treated as a junior member, such as refusing to meet with Roosevelt after Yalta for a report on the conference, and only accepting being allowed into San Francisco as a full great power member, and refusing to accept agreements, even beneficial one, that treated France as not being a great power of equal rank, which conversely meant that it required French participation in institutions like the European Advisory Commission and the Control Commission from Yalta, since not having France in it - while simultaneously partially involving them, such as in the occupation of Germany - would be absurd. De Gaulle played vital roles behind the scenes in emphasizing that while France's material capabilities were limited, France still commanded immense respect, prestige, and moral power, and emphasized the influence France had over the smaller powers. During the war, the military actions helped to keep the French forces in the spotlight and gain valuable diplomatic capital. Yes, it wasn't all de Gaulle, but he did play a key diplomatic role in enhancing France's position in the post-war era. Then during the second stint in power in the 1960s he built up the status of France as an independent party with its own nuclear weapons and a strong continuing role in Africa, which continues to, alongside the European branch of thought, constitute the main assets that France deploys as a great power.

Concerning elections, conversely a civil war at some point - either post-war, or 1958, or 1961 - was a possibility. De Gaulle played a role by virtue of his prestige and of his savvy political maneuverings to keep this from happening, especially with Algeria.

TBH, France isn't a great power by any stretch of imagination. A nuclear weapon isn't all that its made to be, most industrial countries could come up with one in about six months. Similarly, the seats at the European Advisory commission and the Control commission where due to the french having an occupation zone, as much of an allied gift then the one in the security council.

Similarly, refusing to accept the report from Yalta changed nothing to the result of the conference and no matter the details of the seating in San Francisco it was the americans who wrote the terms.

In Europe France is more of a primus inter pares among an association of middle powers and for Africa, well, to be a great power somebody need to be able to act unilateraly. Will you really argue that France could just intervene with her armed forces in the region without some diplomatic cover by more heavy weight countries. One could also debate if her involvement in Africa is actually worth it and if she has the means to rip the benifits (also one of the trait of an actual great power) or just a mid-power who throw her weight around to feel more important then she is. As for the supposed moral authority, prestige and immense respect i'll say it straight up: appart from the sphere of influence maintained at high cost (for rather small benefits) by Paris they just don't exist as you imagine them.

France was once a superpower, and as such she did great things, terrible things and things both great and terrible but that time is over since 1940. Since then she has become a middle-power but a middle-power who hasn't accepter her status and therefore acted in ways that allowed her to at least keep the pretences. Any other industrial nations who had put as much effort in it then the french in the last 70 years would have gained similar tokens of appearances. Making a tantrum by withdrawing from NATO doesn't make you less dependent on the US for defense for example.

De Gaulle saved France honor, by itself it isn't bad but that did absolutely nothing for the allied cause as a whole. Every single piece of land he governed he was put there by the strenght of allied weapons, every force he had was dependant of the allies by supplies. I have respect for the guy but butting him on any level of comparaison with Roosevelt or Churchill is just ridiculous.
 
Always struck me as a giant pain in the ass, but in the long run, I believe he was good for France and Europe. Helped establish an intelligent independence, you'll notice recent elections where the US voted for Trump and the UK for Brexit, but the French went, "just a friggin' moment there, madame..."
 
...this is weird. There were all kinds of black soldiers in the Free French forces (2/3 according to wikipedia were from Senegal), why did the Americans want them to be all white? How did that prove anything?

FDR kept the US Armed Forces segregated.

(Or thought he did - there's evidence that Ike was passing.)
 
FDR kept the US Armed Forces segregated.

(Or thought he did - there's evidence that Ike was passing.)

Yes and that was wrong. On the other hand did you want integration that is going to severely hamper our ability to make war. By today's standard FDR does not live up to being a social liberal that was then this is now. Though segregated I haven't seen any great evidence showing that minorities were mistreated during the war just segregated. In general reasonably well treated for the time. By today's standards not so much.
 
Yes and that was wrong. On the other hand did you want integration that is going to severely hamper our ability to make war. By today's standard FDR does not live up to being a social liberal that was then this is now. Though segregated I haven't seen any great evidence showing that minorities were mistreated during the war just segregated. In general reasonably well treated for the time. By today's standards not so much.

Assuming one accepts that though, that'd be for the US Army. What right should the US have had to dictate to its allies what they did with their own soldiers?
 
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