WI Lenin dies circa August 1917

[What if]

Curious as to what you're referring to here. Do you mean Asian immigration to Russia, Japanese claiming spheres of influence, what?

The Japanese at Versailles wanted racial equality.

 

[What if]

In what respect?

In that in the all races would be equal/ treated equally. But perhaps we should switch the focus back, would they Soviet change the capital back to Moscow or just keep it a Petrograd?

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

But perhaps we should switch the focus back, would they Soviet change the capital back to Moscow or just keep it a Petrograd?

Both contain risks -- staying in Petrograd risks getting captured by the Germans, but abandoning the city is likely to demoralize the defenders. Complicating it still further, it's not just the Soviet that has to make this decision but the CA as well.

 

[What if]

Both contain risks -- staying in Petrograd risks getting captured by the Germans, but abandoning the city is likely to demoralize the defenders. Complicating it still further, it's not just the Soviet that has to make this decision but the CA as well.

I mean assuming victory in the war. I doubt they will let Petrograd fall and think Trotsky given his record could turn it into a victory.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

I mean assuming victory in the war. I doubt they will let Petrograd fall and think Trotsky given his record could turn it into a victory.

Ah, in that case I expect they'll stay with Petrograd -- OTL, it was really the Bolsheviks falling out with pretty much everyone else following Brest-Litovsk that forced them to withdraw to Moscow, where (as has been noted) they were more popular.

 

[What if]

Ah, in that case I expect they'll stay with Petrograd -- OTL, it was really the Bolsheviks falling out with pretty much everyone else following Brest-Litovsk that forced them to withdraw to Moscow, where (as has been noted) they were more popular.

Did not know that before I thought it was to escape stigma of the Tsar's capital being in Petrograd. But this certainly changes things a lot. I wonder is assuming the Spartacist uprisings are dealt with OTL would the Kapp Putsch lead to civil war TTL In Germany?

 

[Hawai'i Hiki No]

Star Trek Enterprise:"Storm Front Parts One and Two"

 

[What if]

Star Trek Enterprise:"Storm Front Parts One and Two"

But this is one year later where he is fully known plus communism may take charge just not the dictatorship of the workers.

 

[Hawai'i Hiki No]

But this is one year later where he is fully known plus communism may take charge just not the dictatorship of the workers.[/QUOTE
I stand humbly and thankfully corrected

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

But this is one year later where he is fully known plus communism may take charge just not the dictatorship of the workers.

Yeah, "bourgeois democracie" and "socialist democracies" are a lot less likely to go to war with each other than fascist and communist totalitarian dictatorships.

 

[What if]

Yeah, "bourgeois democracie" and "socialist democracies" are a lot less likely to go to war with each other than fascist and communist totalitarian dictatorships.

Well my main point is that if Hitler still managed to take charge he would see the USSR in this Timeline as a threat still.

 

[Tom Colton]

Star Trek Enterprise:"Storm Front Parts One and Two"

That also requires the involvement of bat-like space aliens with time travel, though.

 

[What if]

Now I'm curious as to what would happen to the Romanov's since Lenin was the main that wanted an execution whilst Trotsky wanted a show trial. But i have no idea about the rest.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Now I'm curious as to what would happen to the Romanov's since Lenin was the main that wanted an execution whilst Trotsky wanted a show trial. But i have no idea about the rest.

Probably they just get to enjoy their exile at some point; Alexei might not make it to his 20's, but some of the girls might become (tabloid-fodder) celebrities.

 

[What if]

Probably they just get to enjoy their exile at some point; Alexei might not make it to his 20's, but some of the girls might become (tabloid-fodder) celebrities.

So off to the British Isles because thats where they wanted to flee to.

 

[What if]

Another question would communal farming be introduced or not? Plus what would industrialization rate be as I can't see Stalin five year plans (and millions of lives being lost) in this TL.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Another question would communal farming be introduced or not? Plus what would industrialization rate be as I can't see Stalin five year plans (and millions of lives being lost) in this TL.

AIUI, if there's one thing that separates the Socialist Revolutionaries (Left and Right alike) from the "Social Democrats" (who, by now, are the Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, and other parties), it is nardonik, a sort of Russian populism that idealized the Russian peasant and common man. So they were huge supporters of land reform, and would prioritize political support of the Russian peasantry above all else -- meaning no, there isn't going to be anything like agriculture collectivization OTL. And likely, with the government still based around coalition building, Russia won't see the kind of centralization and mass bureaucratization it saw under Stalin OTL either. Don't get me wrong, there will still be lots of nationalizations of industry and the like, but the government will probably struggle with the of aggressive central planning pursued by OTL's early USSR. (I may be wrong, but does this sound sort of like Tito's OTL regime?)

 

[What if]

AIUI, if there's one thing that separates the Socialist Revolutionaries (Left and Right alike) from the "Social Democrats" (who, by now, are the Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, and other parties), it is nardonik, a sort of Russian populism that idealized the Russian peasant and common man. So they were huge supporters of land reform, and would prioritize political support of the Russian peasantry above all else -- meaning no, there isn't going to be anything like agriculture collectivization OTL. And likely, with the government still based around coalition building, Russia won't see the kind of centralization and mass bureaucratization it saw under Stalin OTL either. Don't get me wrong, there will still be lots of nationalizations of industry and the like, but the government will probably struggle with the of aggressive central planning pursued by OTL's early USSR. (I may be wrong, but does this sound sort of like Tito's OTL regime?)

Probably but I don't know much about Tito but I see this maybe like Czechoslovakia just before the 1968 Soviet invasion. My biggest query would be would Russia by the 1930's be a major industrial power?.

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

My biggest query is, would Russia by the 1930's be a major industrial power?.

This is where economic theory and ideology can really color your answer.

I've heard it argued in other threads, for example, that Russian agricultural yields really needed to be higher, that the (pre-revolution) peasant communes were the key obstacle, and that the only things that could achieve that are either breaking up communes into small independent farms or full scale collectivization a la Stalin; if you subscribe to this analysis, then the government TTL, not wanting to pass or support reforms that alienate the farmers, is likely to be bad for Russian agricultural output, thus bad for Russian industry.

An alternate take might say Russian peasants weren't poor because of they farmed in communes, but farmed in communes because they were poor;* as such, land reform that didn't include mass collectivization would be likely to increase their living standards and their output, which would be good for industry. Similar lines of reasoning might look at the industrial workers themselves, and say that less central planning and bureaucracy would mean more autonomy for them as well, resulting in better living conditions for workers, and thus better industry.

And there are other analytical frameworks and theories besides, I'm sure.

*to paraphrase Orlando Figes

 

[What if]

This is where economic theory and ideology can really color your answer.

I've heard it argued in other threads, for example, that Russian agricultural yields really needed to be higher, that the (pre-revolution) peasant communes were the key obstacle, and that the only things that could achieve that are either breaking up communes into small independent farms or full scale collectivization a la Stalin; if you subscribe to this analysis, then the government TTL, not wanting to pass or support reforms that alienate the farmers, is likely to be bad for Russian agricultural output, thus bad for Russian industry.

An alternate take might say Russian peasants weren't poor because of they farmed in communes, but farmed in communes because they were poor;* as such, land reform that didn't include mass collectivization would be likely to increase their living standards and their output, which would be good for industry. Similar lines of reasoning might look at the industrial workers themselves, and say that less central planning and bureaucracy would mean more autonomy for them as well, resulting in better living conditions for workers, and thus better industry.

And there are other analytical frameworks and theories besides, I'm sure.

*to paraphrase Orlando Figes

I think the later as some farmers only had one strip of land! Plus a tint of industrialization by getting factories to produce tractors to hand out to the farmers then create new factories to enable employment.