WI Late Medieval Poland turned West?

Ptholemaios

We all know that under rules of Casimir the Great (Kazimierz Wielki in polish) Poland turned to east, by conquering Galatian-Vladimirian Duchy in Russia. Casimir chosen so, because he feared to challenge the Luxembourgs and any other german dynasties for regaining control of Pomerania and/or Silesia.

But, what if Casimir decided to challenge them and was succesfull? If Casimir the Great regained control of Pomerania and his ATL son, Vladislav, bought Silesia from the Czech dukes, forgetting about Russia and Lithuania. How this, rather small, decision will change the world?
 

Promethean

you say he could be sucsesfulle but i have a question:

was poland cristian at that time cause the people of the HRE would not realy like him if he was a pagan and rebbelions would start soon.
 

Ptholemaios

prometean said:
you say he could be sucsesfulle but i have a question:

was poland cristian at that time cause the people of the HRE would not realy like him if he was a pagan and rebbelions would start soon.
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Poland is christian since 966 AD. Only the Teutonic propaganda said that Poland was pagan.
Yes, maybe the word "feared" is not proper. But he don't wanted to challenge the German kings.

And one more thing: at this time, Silesia or Pomerania were not German, they were still Polish, not counting for the illegal German rulers.
 
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Faeelin

King Baldwin of Carthage said:
And one more thing: at this time, Silesia or Pomerania were not German, they were still Polish, not counting for the illegal German rulers.
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Weren't the cities German by the medieval era?

Anyway, I think this skews things interestingly. Instead of the great magnates of Poland, you see a crown dependent on the Silesian cities.

Maybe you see the kingdom of Poland-Hungary-Bohemia that almost existed OTL?
 

Susano

Banned
King Baldwin of Carthage said:
And one more thing: at this time, Silesia or Pomerania were not German, they were still Polish, not counting for the illegal German rulers.
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Oh for gods sake, another one?:rolleyes:

Sielsia was part of the HRE since 1146, when Vladislav II (then Polish ruler!) swore fealty to the Holy Roman Emperor. His descendants (that is, of the Polish ruling family) then ruled Silesia. So much for illegal German rulers... And Pomerania? That one never was entirely Polish. Germany, Denmark and Poland contested control there. Since 1227 it was HRE/German, and before it was Danish, not Polish.
 

Ptholemaios

I mean the population was clearly polish or, in any way, slavonic, but- for God's sake!- not German!
But please, this is not place for discussion if Silesia or Pomerania was german, or was not, please say what would happen? How would that changed later history of Europe. This will surely affect Russia and Germany.

I think the Habsburg would not allow for Polish-Bohemian-Hungarian kingdom. IMO It would be broken as easily as in OTL.
 

HurganPL

Banned
Sielsia was part of the HRE since 1146,
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Silesia became part of HRE in 1348 not 1146.

swore fealty to the Holy Roman Emperor. His descendants (that is, of the Polish ruling family) then ruled Silesia
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Giving feralty doesn't equal joining the organisation. After all rulers of Poland also gave fealty to Holy Roman Emperor and it didn't mean Poland became part of HRE.

Weren't the cities German by the medieval era?
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Depends on area. Upper Silesia remained mostly Polish, other regions were mostly Germanised in XVIII century, Prussia helped with that by Frederick's colonisation programs to replace Polish inhabitants. Wrocław was largly ethnicly mixed between Germans, Poles, Czechs tillXIX century when Germans begun to dominate.

I have a map of progress of Germanisation in Silesia, perhaps I shall scan it one day.
 

Calgacus

Wasn't a large swathe of eastern Europe occupied by Germanic tribes, before they were "ethnically cleansed" by Huns and Slavs?;)
 

Calgacus

seraphim74 said:
I'm not sure about "ethnically cleansed". Didn't they simply went West, pushed by Huns and Slavs?
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I was joking really. By modern standards it would be, but pretty much par for the course in those days. Ethnic cleansing needn't involve deaths remember.

I post as a response to the stuff like "wasn´t a large part of wat is now eastern Germany Slavic? I thought the Sorbs lived there. most were assimilated by the Germans." While it's true that the Germans were quite expansionist in the east, the occupants hadn't always lived there either. This kind of thing only becomes a problem under our current moral worldview when it enters the modern age, and becomes seen as racist etc. Probably by the partition of Poland, although the experts will probably correct me!
 
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seraphim74

Originally posted by Chengar Qordath
Erm ... isn't forcing a group out of their home territory generally considered ethnic cleansing?
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Well, yes, it is today.
And before Germans there were Celts, Scythians and some unidetified yet people. Migrations of peoples lasted pretty much till medieval.
 

HurganPL

Banned
Wasn't a large swathe of eastern Europe occupied by Germanic tribes
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Nope, while Germanic tribes moved in the territory during emigration from their native lands in Scandinavia, they formed their first states elswhere.

Erm ... isn't forcing a group out of their home territory generally considered ethnic cleansing?
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Except the fact that Slavs didn't force Germanic tribes out of their territories.
before they were "ethnically cleansed" by Huns and Slavs?
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I don't think Huns and Slavs acted together. As to extinct Slavic tribes, they largely moved into mostly empty territory where they formed their first states. Where did you get such ridicolous ideas of "ethnic cleansing" if I might add.


Wasn´t a large part of wat is now eastern Germany Slavic? I thought the Sorbs lived there. most were assimilated by the Germans.
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Yes, the original German state had those borders with Slaivc people:
europe0850lang.jpg
 

Cockroach

HurganPL said:
europe0850lang.jpg
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Precisly when is this map meant to represent (some of the features suggest dark ages while others seem to suggest classical era)? Also where is it sourced from (the fact macedonia is marked as slavic potentially -dependent on era the map represents- rings alarm bells)?
 

Ptholemaios

PLEASE STOP DISCUSSING IF SILESIA AND POMERANIA WAS POLISH OR WAS NOT!

What effects on later history, and especially partitoning the Poland in 18th century, would make this change? Or maybe even partitioning will never happen in this TL?
 

Sapiento

I think if Poland focuses on the west, then, sooner or later, it will interfere with HRE internal politics. It's not too difficult to imagine a Polish king who bribes german electors to see a german King who is not threat for Poland.
Or, like the French king tried, to get for himself the german crown.
 

seraphim74

Assuming Casimir the Great had a son and Piast dynasty didn't end, there is no reason for Polish kings to pay their knights with privileges. Jagiełło (Jogaila) assured POlish crown for his son this way, because he was elected. If Polish kings had been Piast, their claims to Polish throne would have been much stronger. And Piasts could be totally ruthless towards those who opposed them: Maciej Borkowic (executed by starving to death by Casimir the Great), German rebels from Cracow (slaughtered by Władysław the Short). So, king's position in Poland is much stronger. No anarchy, no liberum veto. Piasts also cared more for peasants (no serfdom?) and town people, not only about knights and their descendants, noblemen (szlachta).
But XVIIIth century is to far away to guess what would have happened then. Too much butterflies. Perhaps there would be no Prussia (as union of Brandenburg and Prussia), no Austria (e.g. Vienna captured by Turks). Or Poland in personal union with Bohemia (after Hussite wars)... I have some ideas, I might post something later.
 

Faeelin

King Baldwin of Carthage said:
I think the Habsburg would not allow for Polish-Bohemian-Hungarian kingdom. IMO It would be broken as easily as in OTL.
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Depends on when, and Butterflies.

One of the key aspects of the TL is a Poland strong enough to hold Pommerania and Silesia; presumably that Poland would also be able to make a voluntary dynastic union stick.
 
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