WI: Large Native State on the West Coast

Wouldn't there be major changes prior to 1492? You'd have a major power probably shipping up and down the coast into northern Mexico and depending on how good travel and sea transport is down to Oxacaca even. And depending on what is going where you could have it importing goods like buffalo hides or other Plains good(via the Columbia River Basin traderoutes) and it or northern dependencies exporting dried salmon where possible(or copper-how useful would copper exports be to Mesoamerica), and of course probably there are other interesting things.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Wouldn't there be major changes prior to 1492? You'd have a major power probably shipping up and down the coast into northern Mexico and depending on how good travel and sea transport is down to Oxacaca even. And depending on what is going where you could have it importing goods like buffalo hides or other Plains good(via the Columbia River Basin traderoutes) and it or northern dependencies exporting dried salmon where possible(or copper-how useful would copper exports be to Mesoamerica), and of course probably there are other interesting things.

The Existsnce of this “Inca type empire” could have a major impact on Maya and even Aztec never mind all tribes in and around the Rocky Mountains and upper prairies. Depending on how trade and relations are conducted we could see major changes to Mexico/Central America region too.
 
Last edited:
It’s already been said before but I don’t think these “Cali Inca” can hold out for very long. It’s not really a matter of if they’ll ever be conquered it’s when. They either fall rather shortly after major contact is made because they’re weakened by disease or they’re not as weakened by disease and last awhile but after a century or two they fall to an organized Spanish invasion. What I’m curious about is how this affects the US, how will a more populated Cali affect us and our later on acquisition of the region.
 

Lusitania

Donor
It’s already been said before but I don’t think these “Cali Inca” can hold out for very long. It’s not really a matter of if they’ll ever be conquered it’s when. They either fall rather shortly after major contact is made because they’re weakened by disease or they’re not as weakened by disease and last awhile but after a century or two they fall to an organized Spanish invasion. What I’m curious about is how this affects the US, how will a more populated Cali affect us and our later on acquisition of the region.
Ok I guess my question is why would we assume that US acquires the region. A heavily populated West Coast would of attracted more Spanish settlers and with the increased Spanish presence gold will be discovered much earlier and probably lead to more Spanish and other settlers. Heavy missionary presence along with strong catholic church similar to Mexico. By 1800 West Coast would be similar in terms of composition as Mexico. So Not really open area for American settlers.

No Oregon trail.

Independent Mexico will be different with California probably declaring its independence from Mexico City.

Do not know if Americans able to capture land north of Columbia River (assuming that area not part of Spanish California)
 
Again, why are we stuck on post-1492 outcomes and not on what is going on before this? Cali Inca(we're calling it that let's go with that) would be a major state with major ramifications and we'd expect quite different outcomes.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Again, why are we stuck on post-1492 outcomes and not on what is going on before this? Cali Inca(we're calling it that let's go with that) would be a major state with major ramifications and we'd expect quite different outcomes.
Yes it would change the North American Pacific coast. It would even have impacts with the Mayans and the Aztec. Heck we not know if the Aztec even become the dominant empire by 1500s. They would also have major impact as far as Eastern Rockies.

What we know is that even if the Europeans are not able to conquer Mexico in same way the outbreak of European diseases will weaken all of these empires. So maybe takes Spanish till the 16th century but conquest will happen just not in same manner.
 

Chimera0205

Banned
It’s already been said before but I don’t think these “Cali Inca” can hold out for very long. It’s not really a matter of if they’ll ever be conquered it’s when. They either fall rather shortly after major contact is made because they’re weakened by disease or they’re not as weakened by disease and last awhile but after a century or two they fall to an organized Spanish invasion. What I’m curious about is how this affects the US, how will a more populated Cali affect us and our later on acquisition of the region.
Why are we assuming the US gets it. When the spanish fall apart the Cali Inca are likely to be some of the first to declare independence given that there distance from spain would leave them far more intact then the maya and Aztec were. Spain cant really do the same kind of shit thwy did with the aztec and inca to the Cali Inca through sheer distance alone. Hell OTL most Cali tribes had been left untouched when the US got the territory wayyyy after the spanish. So what ever state pops up from the remains of the Cali Inca Wil likely be a more stable, more powerful Mexico witch the US will find much harder to conquer. Especially considering OTL almost all US westward expansion was into virtually undefended, uninhabited land. We have no idea how the US would do invading somewhere that can actually hit them back.
 
It’s already been said before but I don’t think these “Cali Inca” can hold out for very long. It’s not really a matter of if they’ll ever be conquered it’s when. They either fall rather shortly after major contact is made because they’re weakened by disease or they’re not as weakened by disease and last awhile but after a century or two they fall to an organized Spanish invasion. What I’m curious about is how this affects the US, how will a more populated Cali affect us and our later on acquisition of the region.

If they don't suffer the same fate as the Andean Inca within the first few decades after Spanish arrival, then they will survive for centuries to come, because Spanish rivals like the Dutch and English aren't just going to let Spain conquer them.

An organised Spanish invasion probably wouldn't work since it's difficult to cross northern Mexico/American Southwest, which at the time was full of unsubdued Indians who wouldn't be totally subdued into the 20th century (see the Yaqui Wars). So you need the classic conquistador tactics employed by Cortes, Pizarro, etc.
 

Lusitania

Donor
If they don't suffer the same fate as the Andean Inca within the first few decades after Spanish arrival, then they will survive for centuries to come, because Spanish rivals like the Dutch and English aren't just going to let Spain conquer them.

An organised Spanish invasion probably wouldn't work since it's difficult to cross northern Mexico/American Southwest, which at the time was full of unsubdued Indians who wouldn't be totally subdued into the 20th century (see the Yaqui Wars). So you need the classic conquistador tactics employed by Cortes, Pizarro, etc.
Hm Spanish rivals in western coast, let’s see who there. Dutch not even close they in east Asia and Indian Ocean. British yes but that is in the 18th century not before.

As for crossing the terrain yes that be a major obstacle. But there may be better roads between Mexico and California due to trade between California and Mexico. So that may help. But the Spanish will have the advantage of using its large navy to transport troops and attack costal settlements.
 
If there had been a dense indigenous population in western North America, my sense is that Spanish attentions would be drawn north from Mexico. Whether it would be able to keep this area is another question, but I don't see why it might not be possible.
 
Hm Spanish rivals in western coast, let’s see who there. Dutch not even close they in east Asia and Indian Ocean. British yes but that is in the 18th century not before.

The Dutch attacked Valdivia in Chile several times and even established a fort there. Given a large empire (if embattled and weakened by disease and the resulting internal conflicts), the Dutch would be more active in the region. Francis Drake and his "Nova Albion" expedition as well-you'd see more English activity in the area to plunder Spanish ships and towns and sell stuff to the California Inca in exchange for their gold.

There will be big knock-on effects for Hawaii and East Asia. More ships crossing the Pacific means more contact with Hawaii which will become important. More gold and silver flowing into China. The northern route along the coast of Japan and Kamchatka and Alaska will be known soon, with corresponding effects in those regions. Hell, before sakoku (or if that never happens for whatever reason) Japan was sending out trade ships-at least one might visit the California Inca. There may be Overseas Chinese communities in the native state too.

Agreed Spain will get more involved in the north of Mexico, if only to trade with the California Inca and support what settlements they can take from them. If they do as OTL and trade across the Great Basin, the higher volume of trade might allow Spain to find the large silver deposits of Nevada and Arizona.

But it's hard to say what will happen as a result of this empire. If they're resilient like the Inca, then they can easily persist until either modernising or their partition between Euroamerican powers. If they're brittle like the Aztecs, then they'll implode into several native states which will be conquered sooner or later.
 

Chimera0205

Banned
So if the US does somehow still get Cali what kind of effects on native rights would a large native minority have (as opposed to theless than one percent we have OTL)
 

Lusitania

Donor
So if the US does somehow still get Cali what kind of effects on native rights would a large native minority have (as opposed to theless than one percent we have OTL)
So I wonder how the US will Cali Empire. If the US makes noises and demands they could seek British protection. Even if they do not and we have several million Indians, Mixed race and Spanish (that amount depends if it became part of Spanish empire). So what is US going to do invade conquer and what. They going to exterminate, expel them to camps and free up all the and for whites? Rule Cali and only give voting rights to whites. Remember natives not allowed to vote till either just before or after women. How will the US occupy Cali will the east support the high taxes to have a large army keeping the natives subdued?

Interesting that Mormons might still make it to Utah and align themselves to an independent Cali depending how Catholic it is. Stay independent of US.

Now if the Oregon territory is not part of the Cali empire it could become US main West coast but not sure how far the Cali empire stretches and after European contact they loose territory as population decreased.
 

Chimera0205

Banned
So I wonder how the US will Cali Empire. If the US makes noises and demands they could seek British protection. Even if they do not and we have several million Indians, Mixed race and Spanish (that amount depends if it became part of Spanish empire). So what is US going to do invade conquer and what. They going to exterminate, expel them to camps and free up all the and for whites? Rule Cali and only give voting rights to whites. Remember natives not allowed to vote till either just before or after women. How will the US occupy Cali will the east support the high taxes to have a large army keeping the natives subdued?

Interesting that Mormons might still make it to Utah and align themselves to an independent Cali depending how Catholic it is. Stay independent of US.

Now if the Oregon territory is not part of the Cali empire it could become US main West coast but not sure how far the Cali empire stretches and after European contact they loose territory as population decreased.
The bottom half of ORG is part of the Cali Inca
 
The Spanish sent expeditions all over the Southwest very early after conquering Mexico. They would hear about the Cal Inca very quickly, and it would draw in conquistadors like flies. For all the talk about "the Spanish wouldn't get lucky a third time," remember that they only have to get lucky one more time, and there will be plenty of Spaniards interested in trying. The riches of Mexico (and later the even greater riches of Peru) inspired Spanish conquistadors to go on all sorts of expeditions, waging long and ultimately largely unprofitable campaigns in places like the Yucatan in the hope that they would become the next Cortez or Pizarro. Even if the odds are low (which I dispute; we may only have 2 cases, but the Spanish went 2/2 in those cases), there will be plenty of people rolling the dice.

Once they conquer this region, it will become another major center of Spanish settlement and power, and not one they will relinquish easily. OTL California and what is now the American Southwest were essentially backwaters, scattered with a few missions and small settlements, but with Spain (and later Mexico) only exerting nominal control over most of it. On the other hand; ITTL it will have a large, prosperous native population and plenty of Spanish encomienderos to rule over it. You might even end up with the California gold fields being discovered centuries early, with further resulting development.

In this scenario, the British or Dutch would not be able to intervene without a major expedition, of the sort that isn't practical before the 1700s (and even then, would be difficult and prone to failure, as demonstrated by most of the attempts to conquer Spanish colonies during this time period). Small raids or tiny forts are one thing, but the Spanish wouldn't allow such near a major center of wealth (look at what happened to the French in Florida), and a prolonged military expedition isn't the sort of thing that their rivals would consider at the height of Spanish power.

It will probably become its own viceroyalty (certainly by the 18th century, and probably as early as the 16th), and come independence, become an independent nation in its own right.
 
If they don't suffer the same fate as the Andean Inca within the first few decades after Spanish arrival, then they will survive for centuries to come, because Spanish rivals like the Dutch and English aren't just going to let Spain conquer them.

An organised Spanish invasion probably wouldn't work since it's difficult to cross northern Mexico/American Southwest, which at the time was full of unsubdued Indians who wouldn't be totally subdued into the 20th century (see the Yaqui Wars). So you need the classic conquistador tactics employed by Cortes, Pizarro, etc.

I just don’t see these Cali Inca magically avoiding the diseases that devastated everyone else. Especially since they’re an urban culture that would likely have roads and regularly trade with their southern neighbors like the Aztecs and others. And like the Inca diseases would likely reach them long before the conquistadors and would do most of the dirty work for them. By the time the Spaniards are established and hear of a wealthy civilization to the north a great many of their people would be dead and the Cali Inca would be subdued just like everyone who came into contact with European nations.
 
So if the US does somehow still get Cali what kind of effects on native rights would a large native minority have (as opposed to theless than one percent we have OTL)

Why are we even talking about the USA existing in a world with a POD thousands of years before Columbus? Well, I know why, because without a butterfly net, you need to develop a whole timeline in a discussion thread that is ill-suited for the purpose.

But I think it is safe to say that there will be no recognizable USA in a timeline where the Aztecs are unlikely to exist as OTL. I think we will see either one of two scenarios:
a) the Spanish conquistadors conquer the Cali Inca before 1650. The result would mean even more gold flowing into Spanish coffers which would probably affect European wars....
b) a large (and minerally rich) unconquered Native state draws Spain's rivals to the North American West Coast and one of them forms an alliance with the Cali Inca before 1650. If it was the English, we'd probably see much earlier English interest in either Central America or the Southern Cone (English Chile?) in order to secure a route to the Cali Inca. This would probably draw money and men away from the English colonies in what OTL became thw USA.
If the Dutch, we'd probably see the growth of trans-Pacific trade from Batavia. I'm not sure the longer term implications of this but it wouldn't leave world history untouched. By 1700 at the absolute latest, world history would be irrevocably altered.
 
I just don’t see these Cali Inca magically avoiding the diseases that devastated everyone else. Especially since they’re an urban culture that would likely have roads and regularly trade with their southern neighbors like the Aztecs and others. And like the Inca diseases would likely reach them long before the conquistadors and would do most of the dirty work for them. By the time the Spaniards are established and hear of a wealthy civilization to the north a great many of their people would be dead and the Cali Inca would be subdued just like everyone who came into contact with European nations.

Disease was only one factor which destroyed the Inca. It sparked their great civil war which provoked the instability which allowed for Pizarro to come in and role sixes numerous times to take over the place. But I believe that Pizarro profited off of pure luck. Give the conquistadors a few failed attempts (and lessons learned amongst the Cali Inca who have defeated them), and you have the opportunity for their state to absorb the damage alongside taking in European (and Asian) influences to become a potent local power. By the 17th century, both the Dutch and English will be especially interested in this group, and the Cali Inca can easily learn the balance of European power to play these groups off against each other, even though they'll be ceding ports and other rights to all factions involved (it isn't easy for a nation so valuable to imperialism after all), and even less likely factions like China and even Japan (Japan could easily send a trade expedition or two, China will have merchants settling in the region). They might be past their height (a depopulated country can't hold down that much land after all), but they're still an important regional power.

Again, it depends if it's more like the Inca with their strong centralisation or the Aztecs with less centralisation and a huge number of people who hated them. And that's not counting examples like the Maya (also past their prime, yet persisted into the 20th century via Chan Santa Cruz).
 
Disease was only one factor which destroyed the Inca. It sparked their great civil war which provoked the instability which allowed for Pizarro to come in and role sixes numerous times to take over the place. But I believe that Pizarro profited off of pure luck. Give the conquistadors a few failed attempts (and lessons learned amongst the Cali Inca who have defeated them), and you have the opportunity for their state to absorb the damage alongside taking in European (and Asian) influences to become a potent local power. By the 17th century, both the Dutch and English will be especially interested in this group, and the Cali Inca can easily learn the balance of European power to play these groups off against each other, even though they'll be ceding ports and other rights to all factions involved (it isn't easy for a nation so valuable to imperialism after all), and even less likely factions like China and even Japan (Japan could easily send a trade expedition or two, China will have merchants settling in the region). They might be past their height (a depopulated country can't hold down that much land after all), but they're still an important regional power.

Again, it depends if it's more like the Inca with their strong centralisation or the Aztecs with less centralisation and a huge number of people who hated them. And that's not counting examples like the Maya (also past their prime, yet persisted into the 20th century via Chan Santa Cruz).

I agree that it depends on what type of government they had and what their relationship with their neighbors is like. But since everyone keeps calling them the Cali Inca lets go with the more centralized government.

I think that it’s pretty likely that they’d have a lot of internal issues after the diseases set in. If the central authority is hit hard by the diseases like the Inca were there could be conflict or a loss of cohesion in the Cali Inca which could make fighting off conquistadors very difficult. As you said a depopulated nation won’t be able to easily hold down son much land so once the Spanish heard a rumor or two about gold they’d start moving in. Maybe at first they resist but like we saw with other native peoples guns won’t save them forever unless they can somehow produce them on their own and in large quantity.
 
Top