WI: Large Native State on the West Coast

Chimera0205

Banned
What if a native state of similar power to the Incas formed in the east coast of the United States. controls all of California and Baja California and controls parts of Oregon. it has similar government and religious structures to the Inca and a similar tech level. essentially just imagine a second Inca Empire in Cali. how does this affect European colonial ambitions and US westward expansion? Will they remain uncontacted long enough to recover from the European plagues that would reach them via trade?
 

Lusitania

Donor
What if a native state of similar power to the Incas formed in the east coast of the United States. controls all of California and Baja California and controls parts of Oregon. it has similar government and religious structures to the Inca and a similar tech level. essentially just imagine a second Inca Empire in Cali. how does this affect European colonial ambitions and US westward expansion? Will they remain uncontacted long enough to recover from the European plagues that would reach them via trade?
Any tribe which has contact with other tribes or Europeans explorers will be affected. Even the Visit from Captain Cook ship could have devastating affects on the empire. The greater the empire the greater the number of people living in close proximity in their cities and chance of disease affecting the stability of the empire. Spanish explorers would of visited the area in the late 16th century and if that empire existed there is chance it might of discovered California gold and that would bring conquering armies.
 

Chimera0205

Banned
Any tribe which has contact with other tribes or Europeans explorers will be affected. Even the Visit from Captain Cook ship could have devastating affects on the empire. The greater the empire the greater the number of people living in close proximity in their cities and chance of disease affecting the stability of the empire. Spanish explorers would of visited the area in the late 16th century and if that empire existed there is chance it might of discovered California gold and that would bring conquering armies.
actually the European plagues would hit them far sooner due to trade so they would actually probably go a good hundred years after the plagues hit before actually c0ntacting europeans witch might be enough time to recover with a more immune population. the missipian mound builders were hit way before contact and were even further away from point of initial contact than the californian inca
 
California would almost certainly be conquered in short order meaning Spanish control over the West becomes more or less solidified/incontestable. Perhaps the French, British or Russians take a greater interest in establishing an active presence in the Oregon Country early to get in on the trade in addition to whatever satellite civilizations arise in the region.
 
actually the European plagues would hit them far sooner due to trade so they would actually probably go a good hundred years after the plagues hit before actually c0ntacting europeans witch might be enough time to recover with a more immune population. the missipian mound builders were hit way before contact and were even further away from point of initial contact than the californian inca
The Moundbuilders were totally wiped out.
 

Lusitania

Donor
actually the European plagues would hit them far sooner due to trade so they would actually probably go a good hundred years after the plagues hit before actually c0ntacting europeans witch might be enough time to recover with a more immune population. the missipian mound builders were hit way before contact and were even further away from point of initial contact than the californian inca
Yes the Cree in the Ohio valley were also hit a hundred years before the Americans arrived but the Cree civilization described in the 17h century explorer journals was gone and a smaller and weaker Cree tribes was found. One that was far easier to subjugate and defeat. Can you imagine a Cree tribes of over two dozen or more villages / towns spread out over large area. It would been hard for the Americans to displace them
 

Chimera0205

Banned
Yes the Cree in the Ohio valley were also hit a hundred years before the Americans arrived but the Cree civilization described in the 17h century explorer journals was gone and a smaller and weaker Cree tribes was found. One that was far easier to subjugate and defeat. Can you imagine a Cree tribes of over two dozen or more villages / towns spread out over large area. It would been hard for the Americans to displace them
a large empire has a far better chance of rebonding than a couple small towns.

The Moundbuilders were totally wiped out.
the mound builders were already declining when the plagues came. The Cali Inca are a single stable polarity and thus is more likely to rebound. its also worth pointing out the extreme distance. even as late as the 1800s cali was virtually unihabited compared to mainland mexico and the US. there extreme distance should protect them to a degree.
 
the mound builders were already declining when the plagues came. The Cali Inca are a single stable polarity and thus is more likely to rebound.
Well considering the drought that struck the southwest around the contract era I wouldn't be surprised to see the Cali civilization in decline.
 

Lusitania

Donor
a large empire has a far better chance of rebonding than a couple small towns.


the mound builders were already declining when the plagues came. The Cali Inca are a single stable polarity and thus is more likely to rebound. its also worth pointing out the extreme distance. even as late as the 1800s cali was virtually unihabited compared to mainland mexico and the US. there extreme distance should protect them to a degree.
Yes it has a good chance of rebounding to a medium empire which like the Aztec could of been surrounded by subject nations who while they are affected may decide to enact some revenge and retribution.
 

Chimera0205

Banned
Yes it has a good chance of rebounding to a medium empire which like the Aztec could of been surrounded by subject nations who while they are affected may decide to enact some revenge and retribution.
I said they act more like the Inca then the Aztecs. even if they did set up a bunch of satalitte states they most certainly wouldnt treat them anywhere near as bad as the Aztecs treated theres.
 
I said they act more like the Inca then the Aztecs. even if they did set up a bunch of satalitte states they most certainly wouldnt treat them anywhere near as bad as the Aztecs treated theres.
The Inca thought some of their neighbors were literal monkeys. But yah, still not going to be as bad as the Aztecs.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I said they act more like the Inca then the Aztecs. even if they did set up a bunch of satalitte states they most certainly wouldnt treat them anywhere near as bad as the Aztecs treated theres.
They not need to in order to suffer retribution or greed. But regardless the empire would probably still be intact depending on what other economic, climate and political issues arrive from the contactveith European diseases. What it won’t be is as powerful and as large. But still a prize for any conquistador.
 

Chimera0205

Banned
They not need to in order to suffer retribution or greed. But regardless the empire would probably still be intact depending on what other economic, climate and political issues arrive from the contactveith European diseases. What it won’t be is as powerful and as large. But still a prize for any conquistador.
it is almost universally recognized that the conquistadors got ridiculously lucky. the odds of that shit happening a third time are absurd. if the Cali Inca fall it will be to an actual country not a band of absurdly lucky idiots.
 

Lusitania

Donor
it is almost universally recognized that the conquistadors got ridiculously lucky. the odds of that shit happening a third time are absurd. if the Cali Inca fall it will be to an actual country not a band of absurdly lucky idiots.
Yes those did but 100 years later in the midsts of rebuilding if a new Spanish Army of thousands of European armed soldiers and their indian allies show up they not need to follow previous examples but to attack. which fucks up the rebuild for longer period of time.
 

Chimera0205

Banned
Yes those did but 100 years later in the midst of rebuilding if a new Spanish Army of thousands of European armed soldiers and their Indian allies show up they not need to follow previous examples but to attack. which fucks up the rebuild for longer period of time.
how the fuck are they gonna field an army in the thousands that far away? OTL Cali was virtually uninhabited until the 1800s cause it was so far away. theirs unlikely to be any army more than a couple hundred going anywhere near there till the late 1700s at the absolute earliest and not before large amounts of sporadic contact in witch they might be able to modernize to some degree. by the time the spanish can contact them in any real numbers the spanish will already be struggling to hold unto there existing colonys let alone conquering large empires.
 

Lusitania

Donor
how the fuck are they gonna field an army in the thousands that far away? OTL Cali was virtually uninhabited until the 1800s cause it was so far away. theirs unlikely to be any army more than a couple hundred going anywhere near there till the late 1700s at the absolute earliest and not before large amounts of sporadic contact in witch they might be able to modernize to some degree. by the time the spanish can contact them in any real numbers the spanish will already be struggling to hold unto there existing colonys let alone conquering large empires.
The Spanish will be in control of the Mexico by middle of the 16th century that not going to change. Contact will be made with the West Coast empire and news of riches will spread. I will leave the rest to you. Even if the number of Spanish is say 1000-2000 they could draft double that in terms of natives support troops which they did in the Americas. Plus they will have their ships which could lands thousands of troops anywhere along the coast with the cannons. So 1650-1700 would be reasonable.

Note I never stated 10s of thousands.
 
There would need to be a POD millennia back in order to have an Inca-level civilization in California. California's environment is so conducive to a hunter-gathering-fishing lifestyle, which the hundreds of tribes inhabiting the state depended, that by the time of European contact OTL, the transition to agriculture still hadn't happened, just in some cases various kinds of horticulture. And interestingly, even though maize cultivation had spread to the Southwest and the eastern woodlands before 1492, it doesn't appear to have ever reached California, the Great Basin, or the Pacific Northwest.

But, no problem, let's assume that Mesoamerican agriculture had reached California millennia ago. That, combined with the high carrying capacity of California's environment, the Sacramento/San Joaquin river systems, and the abundant coastal resources, could result in a very high population by ATL 1500 - perhaps nearly as dense as Mexico's at that point - and with a few more developments in societal organization, there could be a large imperial state occupying most or all of California.

The next problem though, as with anywhere else in the Americas, is the virgin soil epidemics. There would almost certainly be strong trade links between Mesoamerica and California in this TL, so as soon as the Europeans reach Mexico, their diseases are going to race to Calfornia. In OTL, it only took about 20 years after Cortéz's conquest of the Aztecs for another conquistador, the Portuguese-in-Spanish-service João Rodrigues Cabrilho, to explore the coast of California. So, assuming this gap holds, the Spanish (or other Europeans) who reach California after a 1520's conquest of Mexico will find the Californian empire decimated by disease, just as De Soto found the chiefdoms of the Southeast in utter collapse during his expedition. And since this California will have a lot more in the way of resources and riches than OTL's, the Spanish won't ignore it for the next 250 years as they did in OTL - they'll likely start moving in right away.

So, there's basically two outcomes I see:

If the disease impact is especially severe, California just becomes an extension of Mexico, easily subdued, settled, and mestizo-ized. Perhaps many of the original California cultures survive and eventually recover from the epidemics, but at that point they'll be living as serfs on Spanish haciendas, just like the Nahua, Zapotec, and Maya.

Or, if by some luck the disease impact isn't as severe, then the Spaniards may truly be up against another Inca power, and this time, as others have said upthread, the dice roll may not go in their favor. They may be defeated in battle with this state's army and withdraw to Mexico, and spend the next century either re-attempting a conquest, or settling into a trade relationship with the Californian state; or, they may reach a stalemate or some sort of accommodation, where perhaps southern California comes under Spanish rule, but the center or north is able to maintain its independence. How long an arrangement like that can last, who knows - California is not nearly as inaccessible as the Andes, so the demographic pressure from Spanish Mexico is going to start pressing in on them eventually, even if they escape an initial conquest.

Awesome idea, though, I'd love to see a timeline.
 
Oooh, there are so many to choose from :)

California_tribes_%26_languages_at_contact.png


I work with the Wappo tribe and am analyzing the phonology of their language for my linguistics degree. From my background research on pre-contact California, I'd say the groups labelled "Penutian" in the map would likely be the most dominant. In OTL, they had the largest populations, especially in the Central Valley. Some of them had migrated into California from Oregon or Nevada during the 1st millennia BCE/CE, and so already had a history of displacing other ethnic groups; it's also likely that the bow/arrow technology came into the state with one or more of them. Any sort of Inca-style empire will be based on the Central Valley and San Francisco Bay, in my opinion. I'm guessing an overall population of such an empire could be from 50,000 to 200,000. But this is pretty speculative because we don't know exactly how agricultural would have progressed in California.

To summarize, I'd pick the Ohlone-speaking and Yokuts-speaking peoples as the most likely candidates for establishing such a state (ignoring the fact that with early agriculture, the ethnic makeup of the state could be entirely different from OTL).

edit: also, if the map is too large, let me know how to shrink it
 
Top