WI Ladislaus the Posthumous lives longer

Ladislaus the Posthumous was a Hapsburg who ruled the Archduchy of Austria and the Kingdoms of of Bohemia and Hungary in personal union. However, he died in 1457 at 17, and the three-way personal union died with him.

So, what if he lives to say, 50 or 60 like most medieval kings, has an heir, and gets said heir to inherit all his realms? Austrian troops at Mohacs? The Austro-Hungarian world power of the 18th and 19th centuries comes into being three centuries early?
 
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I find this Interesting, (which probably isn't a surprise:)), so you wonder what would have happened if Ladislaus doesn't have Leukemia?
To start he would have to deal with three regents (for Hungary, Bohemia and Austria), which could take a while. Another point is that Ladislaus would be more accepted than Ferdinand a century later IOTL. Not to mention the fact that this could prevent Mathias Corvinus (Hungary) and George of Podebrady (Bohemia) as kings, but they could remain influential; and no Jagiellons in Bohemia and Hungary as IOTL.
Regarding the Habsburgs, the Styrian branch OTL HRE Frederick III, Maximilian, Philip, Charles V and Ferdinand were all descendants of that branch; in fact when Maximilian IOTL inherited the territories of the Further Austrian (Tirol) Habsburg branch, the Styrian branch was the only remaining branch and thus became the main line of the house of Habsburg. ITTL the descendants of Ladislaus would be more senior.
 
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I find this Interesting, (which probably isn't a surprise:)), so you wonder what would have happened if Ladislaus doesn't have Leukemia?
To start he would have to deal with three regents (for Hungary, Bohemia and Austria), which could take a while. Another point is that Ladislaus would more accepted than Ferdinand a century later. Not to mention the fact that this could prevent Mathias Corvinus (Hungary) and George of Podebrady (Bohemia) as kings, but they could remain influential; and no Jagiellons in Bohemia and Hungary as IOTL.
Regarding the Habsburgs, the Styrian branch OTL HRE Frederick III, Maximilian, Philip, Charles V and Ferdinand were all descendants of that branch; in fact when Maximilian IOTL inherited the territories of the Further Austrian (Tirol) Habsburg branch, the Styrian branch was the only remaining branch and thus became the main line of the house of Habsburg. ITTL the descendants of Ladislaus would be more senior.

Which butterflies away the Habsburgs even more meteoric rise, even though by the late 13th century they were already one of the most influential Imperial families.
 
Sorry for bumping this, but I was reading about Ladislaus recently and the same idea for a thread.:eek:

If he had lived, the first thing he would need to deal with was a Hungarian rebellion caused by the death of Laszlo Hunyadi, the eldest brother of Mathias Corvinus. I'm not sure if the Hungarians would declare his king deposed and elect a new one, but it's a possibility.

Which butterflies away the Habsburgs even more meteoric rise, even though by the late 13th century they were already one of the most influential Imperial families.

Not necessarily. The survival of Ladislaus wouldn't butterfly the election of Frederick III. Ladislaus' father - Albert II - had already been elected as German King, and after him Frederick III was elected in 1440 and crowned Emperor in 1452. Ladislaus died in 1457. So, the Habsburg ascent to the Imperial throne had already happened, and there is a good chance that the succession would be kept with the Styrian exactly because they would be seen as less powerful.
 
If Bohemia annd Hungary are held by a cousin who may or may not like the Emperor, they will BE considerably less powerful. It would be an interesting power dynamic to explore - but I suspect we're looking at an early end to the HRE, before there's a single German nation like Prussia ready to reassemble the pieces.
 
If Bohemia annd Hungary are held by a cousin who may or may not like the Emperor, they will BE considerably less powerful. It would be an interesting power dynamic to explore - but I suspect we're looking at an early end to the HRE, before there's a single German nation like Prussia ready to reassemble the pieces.

Why do you think it would mean an earlier end for the Empire? After all, Hungary (that didn't belong to the HRE after all) and Bohemia weren't held by the Emperor until Ferdinand I was crowned, but the Habsburgs were still able to increase their power and importance.
 
By the time of Ladislaus's death in 1457 his marriage with Madeleine of France, daughter of King Charles VII, was a fact and the wedding was in preparation when the King died.

If Ladislaus and Madeleine married and had issue? Hungary and Bohemia had a blood alliance with France, who probably affected the later politics of this three countries.
 
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But would he be able to deal with the Hungarian revolt? I think it's very likely that Mathias Corvinus would still become king (even if for a shorter time). And what about George of Podebrady and Bohemia.

Also, if Ladislaus marries Madeleine of France, then Gaston of Viana, the heir of Navarre, needs to find other wife.
 
REICHFURST said:
If Ladislaus and Madeleine married and had issue? Hungary and Bohemia had a blood alliance with France, who probably affected the later politics of this three countries.

Yeah. This could play a huge part in later politics. If Ladislaus doesn't get along with his Imperial Hapsburg cousins, the French are likely to play on that when the question of the Burgundian Inheritance shows up (if not butterflied away by the POD of course).
 
Just a curiosity, as ITTL Vienna belongs to Ladislaus, from where would Frederick III rule? Innsbruck?
 
when Maximilian IOTL inherited the territories of the Further Austrian (Tirol) Habsburg branch, the Styrian branch was the only remaining branch and thus became the main line of the house of Habsburg. ITTL the descendants of Ladislaus would be more senior.

Exactly. In particular, this TL lacks something which we usually take for granted:
United Habsburg realms.
Note that there is also a third branch, represented by Siegmund in Further Austria.

Emperor Friedrich will still try to squeeze the heritage out of his wards Ladislaus and Siegmund, and his odds are still good. However, his position is slightly worse than IOTL. Moreover, if the "Lower Austrian" line persists, this may also keep Siegmund in power. The Tirolian/Further Austrian line is likely to pursue quite different interests than the other two branches, so that we may even see a disunited Habsburg family.

Tyrol can do what Spain couldn't ...


On the other hand, remember that Ladislaus has a very different position to enforce all of his far-reaching claims. In particular, the kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary were elective, and the nobles took their chance to switch whenever they liked. A personal union with one of these is definitely not stable. If Ladislaus gets into trouble in other places, then Bohemia and/or Hungary might even turn away from him during his lifetime.

Still back to the other outcome: If Frederic fails to absorb all his cousins' territories as IOTL, this may keep the character of the Imperial title in a more medieval fashion: We would have a moderately weak prince with an extra crown. This does not resemble the situation of OTL where the Emperor is by far the strongest prince in the Empire and with great influence outside - a role which already Frederic's son Max could fulfill.

Just a curiosity, as ITTL Vienna belongs to Ladislaus, from where would Frederick III rule? Innsbruck?

Perhaps Linz or Ljubljana (Laibach). Innsbruck belongs to Siegmund.
 
Exactly. In particular, this TL lacks something which we usually take for granted:
United Habsburg realms.
Note that there is also a third branch, represented by Siegmund in Further Austria.

Emperor Friedrich will still try to squeeze the heritage out of his wards Ladislaus and Siegmund, and his odds are still good. However, his position is slightly worse than IOTL. Moreover, if the "Lower Austrian" line persists, this may also keep Siegmund in power. The Tirolian/Further Austrian line is likely to pursue quite different interests than the other two branches, so that we may even see a disunited Habsburg family.

Tyrol can do what Spain couldn't ...


On the other hand, remember that Ladislaus has a very different position to enforce all of his far-reaching claims. In particular, the kingdoms of Bohemia and Hungary were elective, and the nobles took their chance to switch whenever they liked. A personal union with one of these is definitely not stable. If Ladislaus gets into trouble in other places, then Bohemia and/or Hungary might even turn away from him during his lifetime.

Still back to the other outcome: If Frederic fails to absorb all his cousins' territories as IOTL, this may keep the character of the Imperial title in a more medieval fashion: We would have a moderately weak prince with an extra crown. This does not resemble the situation of OTL where the Emperor is by far the strongest prince in the Empire and with great influence outside - a role which already Frederic's son Max could fulfill.



Perhaps Linz or Ljubljana (Laibach). Innsbruck belongs to Siegmund.
No ITTL Ladislaus would be the most powerful prince of the empire.

What about the capital of the duchy of Styria, Graz, IIRC this was Frederic III's capital IOTL (or at least for most of his reign).
 
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