WI: Kuritas Central Force meets Admirals Oldendorf's 7th Fleet

As we all know, Admiral Kurita failed to destroy Taffy 3 (and other "Taffy's) at the Battle off Samar. Mainly due to factors of bad battle coordination and a case of mistaken identity. (Kurita falsely believed that the escort Carriers and destroyers he was facing up against were elements of Halseys 3rd fleet). Kuritas central force is made up of: The battleships Yamato, Nagato, Kongō, and Haruna; heavy cruisers Chōkai, Haguro, Kumano, Suzuya, Chikuma, Tone; light cruisers Yahagi, and Noshiro; and a mix of 11 Kagerō-, Yūgumo- and Shimakaze-class destroyers.

South of the Taffy's are elements of Adm. Jesse Oldendorfs 7th support fleet. It consisted of: Six battleships: West Virginia, Maryland, Mississippi, Tennessee, California, and Pennsylvania. All but Mississippi had been sunk or damaged in the attack on Pearl Harbor and repaired, Tennessee, California, and West Virginia having been rebuilt. Four heavy cruisers (USS Louisville (flagship), Portland, Minneapolis, and HMAS Shropshire) four light cruisers (Denver, Columbia, Phoenix, and Boise), and 28 destroyers and 39 motor torpedo boats (Patrol/Torpedo (PT) boats). Earlier last night Oldendorf had successfully engaged and sank the Japanese Southern Force during the Battle of Surigao straight. Small downside is Oldendorf is low on ammo, particulary AP shells, he is resupplying however (arguably faster then IOTL once he hears what is possibly headed his way) and can still put up a fight if necessary.

Now heres the POD, unlike IOTL, Kurita has a positive ID of what he's facing up against, better mental stability (IOTL Kurita had gotten little sleep the previous nights and was no doubt somewhat unstable) and effectively coordinates a perfect tactical naval engagement. He absolutely slaughters Taffy 3,2,1 as he proceeds South toward Surigao Straight. To keep things realistic say along the way,Kurita loses Kumano, Suzuya, Yahagi and 4 of his destroyers. Kuritas shaken, but he's a little more confident then IOTL and is "letting the taste of victory" get to his head. He then encounters Oldendorfs fleet, what happens now?
 
You're also forgetting the Japanese ships had not had access to proper maintenance or had gunnery training in a year.
They had trouble of Taffy 3, if they run into Oldendorf they could be in serious trouble.
 
You're also forgetting the Japanese ships had not had access to proper maintenance or had gunnery training in a year.
They had trouble of Taffy 3, if they run into Oldendorf they could be in serious trouble.
Well the POD here is that Kurita and his fleet had less trouble with the Taffy's then OTL, as for maintenance and gunnery training there's not much that can be done to fix that in both this TL and IOTL.
 
A Jutland level battle? The Americans had already proven themselves in hammering another surface fleet with the same USN battleships just shortly before. If they can resupply the battleships and cruisers will hold a line hammering the Japanese, with most of the destroyers and PT boats trying to escort off the transport fleets under smoke until Halsey can return.

Frankly the IJN that created havoc in night battles off of Guadalcanal no longer exists. They have multiple large ships, but little fuel, and (as noted) incredibly poor training after sitting around for years. While the old USN ships of the line likely won't sink the IJN sortie in the entire, I would imagine they would be able to hold a line against the Japanese ships. Although the US ships are old, they have been updated, and their crews are veterans in both air and surface warfare.
 
Well the POD here is that Kurita and his fleet had less trouble with the Taffy's then OTL, as for maintenance and gunnery training there's not much that can be done to fix that in both this TL and IOTL.
All that would take would be Kurita sit back and realizing exactly what he's up against with Taffy 3.
 
Taffys offer the least amount of trouble if Kurita decides to just pass them and head towards Leyte or if they are missed altogether (e.g. a scout plane identifies the incoming ships and Taffys run away east before being seen). Hunting and sinking all the ships in three groups will consume fuel, ammunition and most of all time.

But how would the battle look like? Is it fair to estimate that Oldendorf would use similar tactic as in Surigao straight dividing his forces to battle line (battleships) and two flanks with lighter forces and position them somewhere near the entrance to Leyte gulf to cross the T? The battleships have a good amount of shells available (if we believe navweaps and other discussions in this forum), but destroyers may have used their valuable torpedoes. It could make sense to replace DDs with the ones providing guard duty for transports to create a better punch for the force.

But how about Kurita? In OTL battle of Samar became a bit of a disarray due him splitting the force for the chase. We would probably see a more organized force ITTL. What would the IJN doctrine say?
 
Taffys offer the least amount of trouble if Kurita decides to just pass them and head towards Leyte or if they are missed altogether (e.g. a scout plane identifies the incoming ships and Taffys run away east before being seen). Hunting and sinking all the ships in three groups will consume fuel, ammunition and most of all time.

But how would the battle look like? Is it fair to estimate that Oldendorf would use similar tactic as in Surigao straight dividing his forces to battle line (battleships) and two flanks with lighter forces and position them somewhere near the entrance to Leyte gulf to cross the T? The battleships have a good amount of shells available (if we believe navweaps and other discussions in this forum), but destroyers may have used their valuable torpedoes. It could make sense to replace DDs with the ones providing guard duty for transports to create a better punch for the force.

But how about Kurita? In OTL battle of Samar became a bit of a disarray due him splitting the force for the chase. We would probably see a more organized force ITTL. What would the IJN doctrine say?
Watching a thing on Samar last night:
1. I think you are spot on about how Oldendorf would have set up. I'd add that he'd probably move the transport fleet East / North East (or "anywhere but there") to get them out and hopefully towards Halsey.
2. Kurita's actions at Samar are incompetent. Only one ship has any decent radar control (Yamato) and the handling of ships was extremely poor, launching "general attack" orders and having destroyer lines follow certain cruisers no matter what. If his pattern continues, the moment contact is made his task forces will break up with no central control. When the destroyers start dropping torpedo strings the IJN formations will break up. This will allow the USN battle line to maintain cohesion and keep between them and the transports.
 
... and having destroyer lines follow certain cruisers no matter what. If his pattern continues, the moment contact is made his task forces will break up with no central control. When the destroyers start dropping torpedo strings the IJN formations will break up. This will allow the USN battle line to maintain cohesion and keep between them and the transports.

How many destroyers did Kurita have? When I gamed out a similar scenario last year dodging 80+ IJN torpedoes gave the US battle line a lot of trouble and kept the gunnery from reaching optimum. Plus there were torpedo hits on three of the six US BB present. Kurt's deployment of the destroyers & light cruisers (which carried torpedoes) seems to have been lacking. These light ships should have shredded Taffy 3. If they are deployed correctly Oldendorfs battle line could have something to think about.
 
How many destroyers did Kurita have? When I gamed out a similar scenario last year dodging 80+ IJN torpedoes gave the US battle line a lot of trouble and kept the gunnery from reaching optimum. Plus there were torpedo hits on three of the six US BB present. Kurt's deployment of the destroyers & light cruisers (which carried torpedoes) seems to have been lacking. These light ships should have shredded Taffy 3. If they are deployed correctly Oldendorfs battle line could have something to think about.

What kind of tactics were used in this game? I would imagine that USN at this point of war knew about the capabilities of long lances and tried to minimize the risk to capital ships. Oldendorf also had a number of DDs to harass the enemy before getting into good firing distance. And of course the 6" guns in the CLs could be useful in this when BB guns start to engage IJN heavies.
 
What kind of tactics were used in this game? I would imagine that USN at this point of war knew about the capabilities of long lances and tried to minimize the risk to capital ships. Oldendorf also had a number of DDs to harass the enemy before getting into good firing distance. And of course the 6" guns in the CLs could be useful in this when BB guns start to engage IJN heavies.

The game I referred to, run last year, was similar in composition of forces, but was based on mid 1942 training & weapons. & No the Yamamoto did not dominate. The RoF has a greater effect than you'd think, and the crew was relatively green.

The secondary batteries of the BB & the cruisers & destroyers did have a strong effect on the Japanese torpedo attacks. Without any of that the the number of IJN torpedoes in the water were estimated as 120+. Damaged/sunk destroyers & cruisers and aborted attacks reduced the probable number by 30-35% to 80+ torpedoes. Which were still to damm many. The US destroyers were pretty much ineffective with torpedoes, and the US cruisers carried few to none.
 
How many destroyers did Kurita have? When I gamed out a similar scenario last year dodging 80+ IJN torpedoes gave the US battle line a lot of trouble and kept the gunnery from reaching optimum. Plus there were torpedo hits on three of the six US BB present. Kurt's deployment of the destroyers & light cruisers (which carried torpedoes) seems to have been lacking. These light ships should have shredded Taffy 3. If they are deployed correctly Oldendorfs battle line could have something to think about.
Eleven I believe at the start of Samar. You would have to assume several are destroyed or damaged and fall off to get through the Taffys.

US had 28 destroyers at Surigao Straits.

We're also looking at six US battleships vs. four IJN. Of those six, three had radar fire control, whereas only the Yamato had some type of radar assisted fire direction.
 
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One thing to keep in mind is that Kurita's goal is to annihilate the US landing force at Leyte. A general engagement with Oldendorf, even if a victory, would leave him so damaged and low on ammunition that he'd have little left to attack the invasion force with before Halsey's aircraft arrived to finish him off. That being the case, he might try to get past Oldendorf as quickly as possible without becoming closely engaged. That would be to Oldendorf's advantage, at least in the tactical battle
 
As we all know, Admiral Kurita failed to destroy Taffy 3 (and other "Taffy's) at the Battle off Samar. Mainly due to factors of bad battle coordination and a case of mistaken identity. (Kurita falsely believed that the escort Carriers and destroyers he was facing up against were elements of Halseys 3rd fleet). Kuritas central force is made up of: The battleships Yamato, Nagato, Kongō, and Haruna; heavy cruisers Chōkai, Haguro, Kumano, Suzuya, Chikuma, Tone; light cruisers Yahagi, and Noshiro; and a mix of 11 Kagerō-, Yūgumo- and Shimakaze-class destroyers.

South of the Taffy's are elements of Adm. Jesse Oldendorfs 7th support fleet. It consisted of: Six battleships: West Virginia, Maryland, Mississippi, Tennessee, California, and Pennsylvania. All but Mississippi had been sunk or damaged in the attack on Pearl Harbor and repaired, Tennessee, California, and West Virginia having been rebuilt. Four heavy cruisers (USS Louisville (flagship), Portland, Minneapolis, and HMAS Shropshire) four light cruisers (Denver, Columbia, Phoenix, and Boise), and 28 destroyers and 39 motor torpedo boats (Patrol/Torpedo (PT) boats). Earlier last night Oldendorf had successfully engaged and sank the Japanese Southern Force during the Battle of Surigao straight. Small downside is Oldendorf is low on ammo, particulary AP shells, he is resupplying however (arguably faster then IOTL once he hears what is possibly headed his way) and can still put up a fight if necessary.

Now heres the POD, unlike IOTL, Kurita has a positive ID of what he's facing up against, better mental stability (IOTL Kurita had gotten little sleep the previous nights and was no doubt somewhat unstable) and effectively coordinates a perfect tactical naval engagement. He absolutely slaughters Taffy 3,2,1 as he proceeds South toward Surigao Straight. To keep things realistic say along the way,Kurita loses Kumano, Suzuya, Yahagi and 4 of his destroyers. Kuritas shaken, but he's a little more confident then IOTL and is "letting the taste of victory" get to his head. He then encounters Oldendorfs fleet, what happens now?
Even if Kurita didn't give up, it would be tremendously hard to even get to Oldendorf.

While fighting Taffy 3 directly and planes from Taffy 2 and 1, Kurita lost several of his heavy cruisers and a torpedo attack on Yamato forced it to ran northwards for quite a while, distancing it from the battle and the rest of his ships. That all for the cost of one US escort carrier and three destroyers. Only at the very end of the battle with Taffy 3 did Kurita's force spotted masts of the central Taffy 2. It would still take several hours to approach it while still fighting Taffy 3 and under continuous attacks of planes from all three groups. If Taffy 2 fought as well as Taffy 3 in direct encounter and planes continued to attack Kurita's force, a few torpedo hits on his battleships, especially the older and worse protected ones, could change his mind. Though Japanese warships were able to reload their torpedoes once, they would probably be out of them by now, so no torpedo attacks on Oldendorf's forces, even if they get that far. Eventually, even if he finally destroyed Taffy 3, Kurita would have to decide either to continue pursuing the evasive American carriers of Taffy 2, which would probably spoil his chances to attack the invasion fleet or to disengage Taffy 2 which would expose him to further air attacks on the way to Leyte Gulf.

If Kurita decides to go for Leyte, Taffy 2 and Taffy 1 in the south evade the fight and refuel and rearm planes (though probably they eventually run out of aerial torpedoes). They still provide aerial reconnaissance for Oldendorf. After all day of fighting the allied ships and facing torpedo attacks from all three Taffies, what is left of the Japanese fleet (keep in mind that the battleships didn't need to be sunk outright, only slowed down and Kurita's force strengths dispersed), probably after sunset, exhausted Kurita encounters the US battleship force. Both sides are out of torpedoes, both sides are exhausted (though the Japanese far more after all day of fighting). Six US battleships face two or three (?) Japanese battleships (facing US air attacks, it is likely that at least some of the battleships are damaged and fail to keep up, if not sunk outright). The US side has permanent aerial reconnaissance, the Japanese side does not know about the presence of the US force. The US force of course has far better gunnery RADAR which is invaluable at night...
 
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The IJN were not able to launch any torpedoes against the USN. Oldendorf "crossing the T" and successful USN destroyer torpedo attacks probably were not helping the situation for the IJN either...

My thought was for Kuritas Central Force, had they expend any vs Taffy-3? Its seems Petr has ninjad my question.
 
How many destroyers did Kurita have? When I gamed out a similar scenario last year dodging 80+ IJN torpedoes gave the US battle line a lot of trouble and kept the gunnery from reaching optimum. Plus there were torpedo hits on three of the six US BB present. Kurt's deployment of the destroyers & light cruisers (which carried torpedoes) seems to have been lacking. These light ships should have shredded Taffy 3. If they are deployed correctly Oldendorfs battle line could have something to think about.

Wiki says 11.
 
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