WI:Korean Sakhalin?

Again, the longer the process, the higher the possibility of abandonment. Not all rulers are keen on supporting their predecessor's policies, while the ruler and the court would not be willing to show support if native raiding parties continue to destabilize the area. In addition, it will require a significant amount of resources to build even one fortress, along with the fact that the soldiers cannot be high in proportion to the total amount of settlers for a stable settlement to be established. If the migrants somehow manage to number around 1,000 before the state's downfall, which in itself is probably highly unlikely, around 50-200 of them will be soldiers, and 400-600 will be farmers, hunters, or traders, so that leaves only a few hundred at most for builders, as half the population would be theoretically composed of women.

With such a small population, it will probably take a decade to build just one fort, not to mention the required costs for expanding the structure, along with rebuilding and/or renovation. Those who attempt to explore the area for more resources in order to expand/contribute to the fort and/or settlement can be easily ambushed due to low numbers, and either structure can easily be attacked before preparations are complete, at which point the costs are much higher than the benefits. Although I certainly realize that several forts in a row can serve as a firm bulwark against potential invasions, such as the ones used by Goguryeo against the Sui and Tang, the relatively limited amount of resources and manpower that can be utilized within a limited area in Sakhalin means that the two situations are not comparable.


I would give the range for the second significant wave of migrants to be around 1,000-5,000, with the actual number closer to 2,500. Larger numbers potentially mean higher mortality rates, as the newcomers need to adjust, and there are not enough resources within the area to sustain such a high population. In addition, I already provided the potential ratio of soldiers to the rest of the population several times beforehand, so the combined total number of soldiers after the second migration would be around 500 at most, which wouldn't exactly be ideal for repelling a numerically superior force. As I stated earlier, the natives were vastly outnumbered when resisting the Japanese for so long, so considering the limited settlement(s), the area would be quickly destabilized by numerous raids soon after the second wave.


That is after different time periods as the Natives of Sakhalin had been under the Ming and Yuan previously and that experience prepared them for conflict with the Japanese. I this Scenario they've had no experience with an organized conquerer and military force. They will be less sucessful also there is another factor of diseases which impacted the population following Japanese occupation which would hit during the Balhaean occupation giving a better chance of success and making resistance more difficult.

The die off of about half the immigrated population was expected but not from simple migration as a much larger would have attempted to come but were unsucceessful. I put the number at about 6000 coming but only 3000 surviving after resources and conflict problems but your number is not much different.

The reason i gave for the number of 1200 as a military force was desperation, combining the immigrated group with the local soldiers and native loyalist also most of the migrants would be those who could make the trip which would be fewer children, women, and elderly therefore most being male. That is why assimilation was important as native wives would be a hall mark of Lesser Balhae. This would impact the language in time but we'll never know how as Balhaean hasn't survived till today.

China would undoubtedly send emassaries to the island nation but rarely. They and Japan might be the only proper sources of reference for Lesser Balhae of this i agree.

I will agree though had Balhae not fallen the settlements would have been abandoned but they fell at the height of the settlement which was not going to last. The settlement only survived and grew thanks to the limited number of women that came causing more marriages with the native women and aliances with several groups of natives. Once the Balhaeans had setteled in the south it became harder to dislodge them. The hostile natives were forced to mostly be in the harsh north which further reduced their ability to organize a fighting force as they were too busy trying to survive.
This is going to be my last post on this thread because I think that we're going in circles here at this point. To reiterate, I don't see anything wrong with trading links between the two, but substantial settlements will require a lot of resources to continuously maintain, which will be extremely difficult to manage in such an isolated environment.

Sorry to hear this i have enjoyed your post although i think you were taking the road of the worse case scenario. I appreciate your insights and would hope you bring your knowledge to other threads i start in the future.
 
Ok Lesser Balhae being of little importance is only forced to pay tribute by Liao for trade but after the fall of Liao to Jin there should be a boost trade with the mainland.

Lesser Balhae wouldn't be as hostile to the state that destroyed the state that destroyed their predecessor. Then the capital of Jin for a while was at present-day Acheng in the Heilongjiang Province of China.


Huining Fu (simplified Chinese: 会宁府; traditional Chinese: 會寧府; pinyin: Huìníng Fǔ) was a prefecture in the Shangjing region of Manchuria . It served as the first superior capital of the Jin Dynasty (1115-1234) between 1122 to 1234 (and was a secondary capital after 1173).

During the early years of building up their empire, Jurchen rulers often moved people from elsewhere in China to their capital, Shangjing. The first Jin emperor, Wanyan Aguda (r. 1115-1123) resettled captives to the Shangjing area during his war against the Liao Empire. Aguda's successor, Wanyan Wuqimai (r. 1123-1134) continued the policy, resulting in numerous wealthy people, skilled craftsmen from Yanjing (Beijing) and the former Northern Song capital Bianjing (Kaifeng) being relocated to Shangjing. Historical accounts report that, after the fall of Bianjing in 1127, the Jurchen generals brought to Shangjing (and elsewhere in North China) several thousand of people, including: "about 470 imperial clansmen; erudites and students of the imperial academy; eunuchs; medical doctors; artisans; prostitutes; imperial gardeners; artisans of Imperial Constructions; actors and actresses; astronomers; musicians". A variety of valuable goods captured in Bianjing was brought to the Jin capital as well.


This would be economically beneficial to Lesser Balhae as its much closer than Liaoyang which was the Liao capital. Then when the Jin moves west that will make them less of a threat to Lesser Balhae. Making trade easier and aidng growth.
 
Lesser Balhae had supported the Jin dynasty during its conquest of Liao and went through a boon of trade for a short while after but some conflict occurred following the heavy adoption of chinese cultural practices by the jurchens.

Later Lesser Balhae's support of Jin would bring the wrath of the Mongols on them.

By 1234 Lesser Balhae claimed the whole island of Sakhalin but most of the natives in the north still considered themselves a separate people. Lesser Balhae had grown but not by much having only grown its population to 10,000 by the time of the fall of Jin 300 years since its foundation. The native population of Sakhalin had restored itself to only 6000.


Anyone with farther insights about how the relationship between Jin and Lesser Balhae would have developed?
 
During the wars against the mongols Jin suffered defeat after defeat and although Lesser Balhae supported Jin they would be unable to provide military aid.



Jin officials and civilians escaped to Lesser Balhae following mongol take over of eastern Jin. The Lesser Balhae would survive another state which held Great Balhae's old territory. Lesser Balhae got a significant immigrant population during the two decades of war and the sacking of the Jin eastern capital. Artisans, architechs, soldiers and officials would all escape to Lesser Balhae straining the growing state's limited supplies. Trade would greatly reduce following loss of the only major trade partner.

Internal conflicts occurr between Lesser Balhaeans and former Jin migrants. In 1264 the Mongols send a force to Sakhalin to subjugate Lesser Balhae. The heaviest resisence is faced at the crossing in the north where Balhaean and remnant Jin forces at the northern border fortifications holed up the mongols thanks to the mongols limited use of naval warfare and the Jin effective use of gunpowder for defence.

Mongol forces defeat the northern forces and travel south facing limited resistence till they reach the western garrisons. The eastern garrison commander sends a force by sea to aid in defence of the capital. The rest of the Eastern garrison troops head northwest to surround the mongols but find the mongol's raiding parties too strong on land and are crushed. Before the fall of the western garrison Lesser Balhae sues for peace by surrendering. Mongols punish Lesser Balhae by forcing heavy tributes on them.

Jin migrants are oppressed leading to rebellions.


*I am not sure how long to state the resistance lasted against the mongols?
 
1235

Mongol forces chase fleeing Jin officials and soldiers to the Northern crossing port. The Jurchens are allowed into Lesser Balhae where they aid in defending the northern border crossing and others flee south.

1249

Mongols emissary demands surrender and tribute from Lesser Balhae but is killed by Jurchen militants.

1255

Another Mongol emissary is sent but stopped at the port and not allowed to land.

1260

Mongols under Kublai Khan declare war on Lesser Balhae.

1264
A small force of 7000 men and 20 ships are assembled to assaults the northern fortification and land along the west coast launching the campaign in 1264.

1274
Mongols fail in there invasion of Japan.

1281
Second attempt to subjugate japan fails.

1297
Now the Yuan Empire sent 10,000 more soldiers to subjugate Lesser Balhae which could no longer endure the constant war. Nivkhs were growing stronger in the North West and taking in the jurchen refugees had emptied the coffers. Yuan forces broke through at the Northern Fortress in 1302. The Fortress was used by the Yuan dynasty as their base to send forces south. Ships had already deployed additional forces further south in which the Western Garrison was in battle with since 1299.

To surround the Yuan forces the Field Marshal of the Eastern Garrison deployed most of his army. Two forces were sent by sea to reinforce the capital and the Western Fortress which was under siege. The Western Garrison was holding against the smaller raiding forces which came by sea. But it would not hold once the main forces came from the North. The Field Marshall had lead the rest of his army to the Northern Fortress with the intent of retaking it and cutting the Yuan army off. Then he could march south and catch the Yuan forces in a pincer attach, but his force was constantly being attacked by Mongol ambushes. The Yuan forces were too strong at fighting on land mowed down Lesser Balhaean troops. During the war with Yuan the large number of jurchen refugees had strained Lesser Balhae’s economy causing much mistreatment and many rebellions from the jurchens. This was often because Jurchens were given much less fertile land in the north.

1303
Lesser Balhae surrenders to the Yuan Empire following panic in the capital at the news of the fall of the Northern Garrison and the routing of the Eastern Garrison troops.

The Yuan dynasty imposed heavy penalties on Lesser Balhae for their long enduring resistance. The Northern and Western Garrisons were occupied by Yuan troops. Another such punishment was to send slaves to Yuan. To save its people the Ruler of Lesser Balhae and the court ordered the sending of Jin migrants as slaves to Yuan.

The Lesser Balhae resisted for over 38 years thanks to the Mongols lack of skills in sea warfare. Over 12,000 Jin migrants had escaped to lesser balhae since the fall of Jin and 3000 died in the resistance against the Mongols along with 4600 balhaeans.

1313
Over 3000 Jin migrants and 2000 balhaeans had been sent as tribute to the Yuan dynasty. Discontent in the court reigned as Yuan officials regularly berated the Balhaean king as to the size of the tribute his meager kingdom could send each year. Jurchen rebellions occurred in the North where a number of Jin officials fleeing the Balhaean court took 4000 Jin Migrants. They seceded in taking the northern Garrison from the Yuan troops and declared a Nation.

1314
Lesser Balhae was ordered to deploy troops to suppress the northern Jin migrants. This was following a Yuan official ridiculing the new Balhaean king which the Yuan dynasty appointed for allowing the founding of a Jin state on their soil.

Yuan troops were deployed along side Lesser Balhaean troops to suppress the Jurchen state. 2200 Jurchens were killed 400 scattered and 1400 sent as slaves to Yuan along with 2000 Balhaeans. Lesser Balhae was made to pay for the deployment of Yuan troops.
 
I think you're forcing the scenario to occur at this point, so I'll respond briefly.

Ok Lesser Balhae being of little importance is only forced to pay tribute by Liao for trade but after the fall of Liao to Jin there should be a boost trade with the mainland.

I already explained how at most, 6,000 migrants will settle on the island by 926-36, and after the population decreases in the process of adjustment, the total number of outsiders will probably only number 1,000-3,000. In addition, the Liao will ignore the Balhae refugees and not establish any trading relations, while Goryeo will be unable to do so due to the distance involved, not to mention that the Khitan will almost certainly resume hostilities if any attempts are made. As a result, the population will probably be around 2,500-4,000 by 1125 in ideal conditions, and that's assuming that they manage to survive the various raids from the natives. Even if the settlers manage to take any wives from the locals, the amount in any given moment will be very minimal, and the native population will be quickly restored through population growth.

Lesser Balhae wouldn't be as hostile to the state that destroyed the state that destroyed their predecessor. Then the capital of Jin for a while was at present-day Acheng in the Heilongjiang Province of China.

This would be economically beneficial to Lesser Balhae as its much closer than Liaoyang which was the Liao capital. Then when the Jin moves west that will make them less of a threat to Lesser Balhae. Making trade easier and aidng growth.

Yes, but you're still not addressing exactly why the Jin would even care about maintaining continuous contact with an isolated island with around 10,000-15,000 inhabitants, around 75-90% indigenous, not to mention an insignificant amount of resources. Former individuals from Balhae were certainly involved within the Jin administration IOTL, but in either scenario, the Jurchen would benefit much more from maintaining close ties with Goryeo. Trade will not occur for long if only one side benefits, which is what will essentially happen within the island as the imports will vastly outnumber the exports, and eventually cost the Jin in the long run. In addition, they would first need to know about the existence of settlements in the area, which would be virtually impossible after it is cut off from all trading ties for two centuries.

Lesser Balhae had supported the Jin dynasty during its conquest of Liao and went through a boon of trade for a short while after but some conflict occurred following the heavy adoption of chinese cultural practices by the jurchens.

Later Lesser Balhae's support of Jin would bring the wrath of the Mongols on them.

By 1234 Lesser Balhae claimed the whole island of Sakhalin but most of the natives in the north still considered themselves a separate people. Lesser Balhae had grown but not by much having only grown its population to 10,000 by the time of the fall of Jin 300 years since its foundation. The native population of Sakhalin had restored itself to only 6000.

During the wars against the mongols Jin suffered defeat after defeat and although Lesser Balhae supported Jin they would be unable to provide military aid.

Jin officials and civilians escaped to Lesser Balhae following mongol take over of eastern Jin. The Lesser Balhae would survive another state which held Great Balhae's old territory. Lesser Balhae got a significant immigrant population during the two decades of war and the sacking of the Jin eastern capital. Artisans, architechs, soldiers and officials would all escape to Lesser Balhae straining the growing state's limited supplies. Trade would greatly reduce following loss of the only major trade partner.

Internal conflicts occurr between Lesser Balhaeans and former Jin migrants. In 1264 the Mongols send a force to Sakhalin to subjugate Lesser Balhae. The heaviest resisence is faced at the crossing in the north where Balhaean and remnant Jin forces at the northern border fortifications holed up the mongols thanks to the mongols limited use of naval warfare and the Jin effective use of gunpowder for defence.

Given the above, I highly doubt the Balhae population will increase to much more than 5,000 by 1234, although the maximum number that I'm willing to imagine would be around 7,500. In either case, the natives will probably remain as the majority with around 10,000 inhabitants. In addition, if a significant amount of Jurchen somehow manage to emigrate to the island after the state's fall, political and cultural clashes, along with population pressures and the lack of resources, will cause the rump state's population to fall again to 2,000-3,000, and although there will initially be several competing states due to the turmoil, the lack of resources will cause most of them to disappear within a few years/decades, leaving only around 3,000-5,000 individuals within scattered settlements, ultimately resulting in negative population growth.

-timeline-

With such a small population and area to resist the Mongol invaders, as soon as the latter make a concerted effort to invade (around 1260-97 according to your timeline), the inhabitants will almost certainly be decimated within a few months, if not a year, as they will move swiftly through the terrain, and gain support from any of the rump state's enemies. Everything would most likely be destroyed to the point of where future historians and archaeologists will be uncertain about any details of the subjugated state.
 
Lesser Balhae's growth actually didn't stop as a small trickle of people crossed into Lesser Balhae continuously from the Fall of the other rump Balhae states to the Fall of Jin.

Lesser Balhae even got more former Balhae people during the fall of Liao and during the Jin period even before Jin's Fall Jurchens moved into Lesser Balhae.

An additional 2000 Balhaean peoples and even a few(though insignificant in number) Goryeo people made it to Lesser Balhae. Jurchens already had a population of 900 in Lesser Balhae.

But yes the native population of Sakhalin was the majority but a significant number of natives were living as Lesser Balhaean citizens or were intermarried into the society.

The Khitan Liao dynasty really only opened up minor trade with Lesser Balhae during its period. This trade and the tributary relationship was established following the founding of the country to show that Liao had totally suppressed Balhae and all its successors. Another reason was the surviving Balhaean officials who worked under the Khitan supported Lesser Balhae as best they could as a means of have a stronger supporting group themselves.

They petitioned on behalf of Lesser Balhae which was cut off mostly from most normal trade routes and hadn't fully developed others.

It was Lesser Balhae that needed to establish the trade.

An interesting detail is that by the time of the Yuan conquest the Lesser Balhae royal family had both Jurchen and Ainu mixed into the Bloodline. Following the Conquest Lesser Balhae royalty also came to have Mongol blood mix into the royal line.

Another interesting detail was that Jurchen was being more heavily adopted as a language in Lesser Balhae as a trade Language. Even the Jurchen Script was being more widely used even post Jin's Fall.

With the introduction of many Jurchens and suppression by Yuan Lesser Balhae loss alot of its cultural norms.

The Massive number of Jurchens who fled to Lesser Balhae was because they knew Lesser Balhae would take them in as allies. Also they came because they knew Lesser Balhae was developed But this may have actually aided in the downfall of Lesser Balhae. So many resources went to the refugees that the country was impoverished and that lead to rebellions by starving peoples.

Mongols were terrible at warfare at sea and although the crossing point is short. A good set of fortications at the coast would defend against the Mongols for decades if given enough supplies and troops.

The Mongols also made the mistake of underestimating the Lesser Balhaean defenses. Sending relatively few troops to invade the country. This was combined with Jin troops that made it to Lesser Balhae and their tactics prolonged the war.

But once through the Fortications and across the sea on land the Mongols tore through the Balhaean defenses. But Balhae was so poor that by this point they just surrendered.
 
Lesser Balhae's growth actually didn't stop as a small trickle of people crossed into Lesser Balhae continuously from the Fall of the other rump Balhae states to the Fall of Jin.

Lesser Balhae even got more former Balhae people during the fall of Liao and during the Jin period even before Jin's Fall Jurchens moved into Lesser Balhae.

An additional 2000 Balhaean peoples and even a few(though insignificant in number) Goryeo people made it to Lesser Balhae. Jurchens already had a population of 900 in Lesser Balhae.

Again, a few hundred emigrating to the island every decade or so will barely make a dent in the population statistics, due to adjustment, while thousands emigrating at a time will lead to a strain in resources and a drastic population decline. My previous statistics, especially the higher estimates, factored in any possible migrations as well.

But yes the native population of Sakhalin was the majority but a significant number of natives were living as Lesser Balhaean citizens or were intermarried into the society.

"Significant" isn't really being specific here. For example, 1,000 switching sides over a decade or so would be significant in terms of both populations for the short term, but it would do nothing to affect population growth for the long term. Again, minimal resources, along with a limited area for any potential settlements, mean that the population growth cannot be sustained in the long term, so the total population will probably not exceed 4,000 or so by 1125.

The Khitan Liao dynasty really only opened up minor trade with Lesser Balhae during its period. This trade and the tributary relationship was established following the founding of the country to show that Liao had totally suppressed Balhae and all its successors. Another reason was the surviving Balhaean officials who worked under the Khitan supported Lesser Balhae as best they could as a means of have a stronger supporting group themselves.

They petitioned on behalf of Lesser Balhae which was cut off mostly from most normal trade routes and hadn't fully developed others.

It was Lesser Balhae that needed to establish the trade.

Again, this is the weakness in your scenario. The island is isolated enough from Manchuria for any state, whether it is the Liao, Goryeo, or the Jin, to ignore it altogether. None of the states would bother to establish any form of relations with the rump state if there were no tangible benefits. No matter how the smaller entity attempted to do so, it would be rebuffed by the larger state's court, which would be more concerned about maintaining closer connections with other states in East Asia.

An interesting detail is that by the time of the Yuan conquest the Lesser Balhae royal family had both Jurchen and Ainu mixed into the Bloodline. Following the Conquest Lesser Balhae royalty also came to have Mongol blood mix into the royal line.

Another interesting detail was that Jurchen was being more heavily adopted as a language in Lesser Balhae as a trade Language. Even the Jurchen Script was being more widely used even post Jin's Fall.

With the introduction of many Jurchens and suppression by Yuan Lesser Balhae loss alot of its cultural norms.

The Massive number of Jurchens who fled to Lesser Balhae was because they knew Lesser Balhae would take them in as allies. Also they came because they knew Lesser Balhae was developed But this may have actually aided in the downfall of Lesser Balhae. So many resources went to the refugees that the country was impoverished and that lead to rebellions by starving peoples.

Individuals within the royal family might marry other ethnic groups, but this doesn't do much to resolve the population growth, as resources and settlement will remain limited. In addition, adopting another writing system implies that hundreds of scholars will emigrate, meaning that thousands of farmers/traders/hunters will do so as well, leading to massive strife as the lack of resources lead to widespread tensions among the newcomers, settlers, and the natives, which I factored into the statistics in my previous post. In other words, by the time the Mongols arrive, the society will be devastated to the point where no single leader has control over more than a few hundred people at most.

Mongols were terrible at warfare at sea and although the crossing point is short. A good set of fortications at the coast would defend against the Mongols for decades if given enough supplies and troops.

The Mongols also made the mistake of underestimating the Lesser Balhaean defenses. Sending relatively few troops to invade the country. This was combined with Jin troops that made it to Lesser Balhae and their tactics prolonged the war.

But once through the Fortications and across the sea on land the Mongols tore through the Balhaean defenses. But Balhae was so poor that by this point they just surrendered.

I already explained quite a while ago that the extremely limited amount of resources and manpower available would translate into only a small handful of fortresses, if any, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The Mongols also had significant experience with laying siege to fortresses, and could recruit sailors from other conquered regions, such as the Jin. In addition, they were often vastly outnumbered when fighting, not to mention that even sending a few thousand would be enough to overwhelm the rump state, given the total population. In other words, there would only be about 500-1,000 soldiers to resist any potential invasions, which suggests capitulation within a year or so.

Ultimately, no matter how the inhabitants surrendered, the amount would be insignificant enough for them to be virtually eradicated and/or sold into slavery, or the population to be devastated to the point where the settlements dissolve and the population is absorbed into various tribal groups.
 
These aren't settler populations they are refugeess.
Never forget thenatives only had an original population of 10,000 as a middle grround the balhaean had only 4000 initially and was absorbing immigration of 3000 balhaean/jurchen from the mainland and 5000 natives before the population doubled at the fall of jin.
Again, a few hundred emigrating to the island every decade or so will barely make a dent in the population statistics, due to adjustment, while thousands emigrating at a time will lead to a strain in resources and a drastic population decline. My previous statistics, especially the higher estimates, factored in any possible migrations as well.



"Significant" isn't really being specific here. For example, 1,000 switching sides over a decade or so would be significant in terms of both populations for the short term, but it would do nothing to affect population growth for the long term. Again, minimal resources, along with a limited area for any potential settlements, mean that the population growth cannot be sustained in the long term, so the total population will probably not exceed 4,000 or so by 1125.



Again, this is the weakness in your scenario. The island is isolated enough from Manchuria for any state, whether it is the Liao, Goryeo, or the Jin, to ignore it altogether. None of the states would bother to establish any form of relations with the rump state if there were no tangible benefits. No matter how the smaller entity attempted to do so, it would be rebuffed by the larger state's court, which would be more concerned about maintaining closer connections with other states in East Asia.



Individuals within the royal family might marry other ethnic groups, but this doesn't do much to resolve the population growth, as resources and settlement will remain limited. In addition, adopting another writing system implies that hundreds of scholars will emigrate, meaning that thousands of farmers/traders/hunters will do so as well, leading to massive strife as the lack of resources lead to widespread tensions among the newcomers, settlers, and the natives, which I factored into the statistics in my previous post. In other words, by the time the Mongols arrive, the society will be devastated to the point where no single leader has control over more than a few hundred people at most.



I already explained quite a while ago that the extremely limited amount of resources and manpower available would translate into only a small handful of fortresses, if any, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. The Mongols also had significant experience with laying siege to fortresses, and could recruit sailors from other conquered regions, such as the Jin. In addition, they were often vastly outnumbered when fighting, not to mention that even sending a few thousand would be enough to overwhelm the rump state, given the total population. In other words, there would only be about 500-1,000 soldiers to resist any potential invasions, which suggests capitulation within a year or so.

Ultimately, no matter how the inhabitants surrendered, the amount would be insignificant enough for them to be virtually eradicated and/or sold into slavery, or the population to be devastated to the point where the settlements dissolve and the population is absorbed into various tribal groups.

The numbers you presented would be correct if the founding of Lesser Balhae. Was a directed attempt at colonization ,but that is not the case here.
Lesser Balhae was founded by refugees and often new waves that came to the island were more refugees. The harsh climate and difficult route to get there weeded out. The weakest rfugees of each group. Those without the skills to survive the. Climate rarely. Made it to the new land. 75% of the migrants were healthy adult males very few women or children made the trip. Many of these men were skilled in survival and many were capable of combat. I am not sure where you are getting your troop numbers from?

THIS IS part of why they heavily married native wives. Natives added 2100 to the initial population then an additional 2000 natives were allies.. what little raiding went on did very little to the balhaeans side as the reprizals were not worth the fight natives either traded with the balhaeans or avoided them which was easy since 80% of the population lived in the south with their allies. As to food remember the island is not a dirt poor wasteland it could support as many as 40000 people naturally on its resources most of which are in the south. Then with fishing lesser balhae always had more than enough to feed its population.

Unless the population of lesser balhae was in constant decline several thousand people moving there overtime would be a great impact. Allowing the population to reach 10,000 during an economic boom. The heavy migration of the Jin followed the same pattern of mostly being males and several thousand were soldiers. Balhae desperate employed its own small army to focus on defense which was about 2200 men at the time and 800 native auxileries, Through the tactics the mongols were often prevented from landing troop. Ships were sunk through an effective use of gunpowder learned from the Jin and fire. Then siegging the fortications was difficult through the winters.

Most of the mongols more effective troops and jin crew would be use against a much larger foe like the japanese.

Overtime the balhaeans built up a miltary but this was to only 3300 troops with 1200 auxileries against 7000 many of which never made it to shore.

The losses. Of ships and men in the different campaigns pushed back the next attempt till 1297 the yuan forces planned well for getting their troops across sending small forces to test different areas defenses. They started the larger campaign in 1299.
 
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It looks like we're going in circles again. Generally speaking, I think that you're solely focusing on the island, and mostly ignoring the states within Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula, while I'm trying to analyze the situation as a very small component of East Asia. You might be able to work out the specifics better with your approach, but the situation has to ultimately fit within the geopolitics of the region as a whole, which you're not directly addressing.

These aren't settler populations they are refugeess.

Both have to "settle" within an area, unless you're telling me that the "refugees" will become nomads. Regardless, the fact that they are refugees suggests that a significant amount of them will not survive for more than a decade or so, as settlers will generally be more able to adjust to the environment after utilizing resources efficiently.

Never forget thenatives only had an original population of 10,000 as a middle grround the balhaean had only 4000 initially and was absorbing immigration of 3000 balhaean/jurchen from the mainland and 5000 natives before the population doubled at the fall of jin.

I honestly have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here because you've lumped everything together, but I'm going to assume that your statistics attempt to prove a "significant population growth rate" due to immigration and assimilation. However, these figures are too high, as the Jurchen/natives will drastically outnumber the original refugees from Balhae, and conflicts will inevitably occur due to population pressures and/or dissent from the native majority, weakening the state.

The numbers you presented would be correct if the founding of Lesser Balhae. Was a directed attempt at colonization ,but that is not the case here.
Lesser Balhae was founded by refugees and often new waves that came to the island were more refugees. The harsh climate and difficult route to get there weeded out. The weakest rfugees of each group. Those without the skills to survive the. Climate rarely. Made it to the new land. 75% of the migrants were healthy adult males very few women or children made the trip. Many of these men were skilled in survival and many were capable of combat. I am not sure where you are getting your troop numbers from?

Disorganized refugees translate into cramped conditions, which drastically increase the mortality rate. Even if we somehow assume that 75% of the migrants (which you ironically equated with refugees) are in "ideal" condition, I'm guessing that only around 25-50% of the original number will remain alive within a decade or so. I also thought that I thoroughly explained beforehand how the settlements will not be sustainable in the long run if the soldiers number more than 1/5 of the population or so, not to mention that soldiers in cramped conditions have the tendency to spread disease, which is certainly not ideal in this scenario.

THIS IS part of why they heavily married native wives. Natives added 2100 to the initial population then an additional 2000 natives were allies.. what little raiding went on did very little to the balhaeans side as the reprizals were not worth the fight natives either traded with the balhaeans or avoided them which was easy since 80% of the population lived in the south with their allies. As to food remember the island is not a dirt poor wasteland it could support as many as 40000 people naturally on its resources most of which are in the south. Then with fishing lesser balhae always had more than enough to feed its population.

After a century or two, the population will probably retain some Balhae customs, but the individuals will be vastly composed of natives, meaning that conflict will most likely occur if the "royal family" attempts to impose restrictions due to its extreme minority and fear of a hostile takeover. I also never stated that the island was a "dirt poor wasteland," and if I did so, the population within such a restricted area would probably not survive much more than two generations. While fish would be a major food source, rice and vegetables still need to be grown extensively on farmland, which will be extremely difficult to achieve either due to the lack of enough land, requiring frequent conflicts with local tribes, or cultivars from Manchuria, which will take decades, if not centuries, to adopt in a different climate.

Unless the population of lesser balhae was in constant decline several thousand people moving there overtime would be a great impact. Allowing the population to reach 10,000 during an economic boom. The heavy migration of the Jin followed the same pattern of mostly being males and several thousand were soldiers. Balhae desperate employed its own small army to focus on defense which was about 2200 men at the time and 800 native auxileries, Through the tactics the mongols were often prevented from landing troop. Ships were sunk through an effective use of gunpowder learned from the Jin and fire. Then siegging the fortications was difficult through the winters.

The "economic boom" requires the Jurchen to view the island as profitable to begin with, which you're still not directly addressing. In addition, if you're saying that several thousand were soldiers, you're essentially suggesting that at least 10,000 Jurchen will emigrate from Manchuria, which will almost certainly destabilize the rump state due to political, cultural, and population factors. In addition, the amount of soldiers fighting against the Mongols that you provided is too high, not to mention that the Mongols will adopt gunpowder much more extensively from the Jin, and will be able to transport the weapons by ship, as the Jurchen immigrants would have done so previously as well. In other words, while the Mongols might take some casualties, the fact that the walls on the island will be breached numerous times, and that they will not be rebuilt quickly, suggests that the inhabitants on the island will no longer have the capability to fight an extended war after a conflict or two.

Most of the mongols more effective troops and jin crew would be use against a much larger foe like the japanese.

I hope you're not being serious here. The Mongols will need at least a few hundred sailors before attempting to invade an island, which will be an insignificant number in terms of the navy as a whole. However, it will certainly be enough for most of the army to successfully land and conduct extensive operations afterward.

Overtime the balhaeans built up a miltary but this was to only 3300 troops with 1200 auxileries against 7000 many of which never made it to shore.

The losses. Of ships and men in the different campaigns pushed back the next attempt till 1297 the yuan forces planned well for getting their troops across sending small forces to test different areas defenses. They started the larger campaign in 1299.

Even if we're assuming that the rump state's population was around 10,000 at this time, which I would consider to be unreasonably high, the total amount of troops would probably number around 1,000-2,000, based on the ratio I provided earlier several times. That is barely enough to resist the Mongols, let alone being run over.
 
The Economic and population growth of Lesser Balhae

Lesser Balbae did perform some trade most of its production was used domestically with herring, salmon, deer hides, coaling, ship building, logging, ducks, limited rice farming and a few hardier vegetables.


Its production went up as the population grew and shipbuiding and fishing expanded.

Coal and wine products were some of its more desired trade items. Deer was also a useful trade item.

Two thirds of the refugee population died as over 9000 attempted to reach lesser Balhae after the fall of Balhae but only 3000 succeeded in settling and surviving. Most just couldn't survive the trip and settlement. Together with the population already on the island of 1000 they made the starting population of 4000.

3000 is the number that made it to Southern Sakhalin and in the initial period survived heavily off the little trade production that had started with the small outpost fortresses. Hunting and Fishing was the main means of feeding the starting population and thanks to the small port towns used to ship tributes back fishing had expanded.

Housing/shelter was much the main problem for the population but lumber and logging did exist so homes were built. Coal and deer hides allowed for more to survive in the harsh weather.

Small amounts of native raiding did occur but the natives were not unified in their attempts causing little damage but receiving heavy reprizals mostluy in being enslaved and the women taken for wives by the Balhaeans. Many Natives were pushed north to the harsher region of the island.

A small amount of trade though insignificant occurred between Lesser Balhae and Liao, Balhaean royals no longer called themselves an empire but a knigdom.

From the Liao Period to the Jin period an thanks to the fall of the other successor balhaean states about 3000 Balhaeans moved to with the largest wave coming after the fall of of its rivals with about 500. Construction of boats and homes was constantly trying to keep up with demand.

Shipping was a great useful industry for Lesser Balhae as it filled a transportation need.

Wine production expanded during the Jin period and so did farming reach its peak. Herding grew, hunting grew, fishing grew the most, coaling grew. The Population was growing and Jin merchants were given rights to the wine industry in exchange for clay pots needed for expanding production.

Lesser Balhaean wine grew in popularity.


Lesser Balhae's demographics were about

4000 natives under Balhaean rule

6000 Balhaean with 3500 of them having some native ancestry

2000 natives assimilated as balhaeans

1000 Jin people

1000 people of unknown ancestories.

Afrter the Fall of Jin the Jurchen refugees numbered 12,000 that entered Lesser Balhae. Many were fleeing soldiers. During the Jin-Mongol war Lesser Balhae fearing possible mongol incursion stocked up supplies and built up its meager army to a force of 2200 with 800 native auxileries and 3000 jin conscripts and former soldiers made to fight for Lesser Balhae in exchange for assistance.

The War between Jin and the Mongols went on for decades and it was decades more before the mongols attempted to invade Lesser Balhae. This gave Lesser Balhae time to absorb the Jin migrants which came over time of 42 years. But it was still too short a time to absorb the number and that drained the economy along with the military build up.


When the Mongols first invasion of lesser balhae failed they paused to plan the more important invasion of Japan.

The later subsequent invasion was far more successful.
 
I'm just going to address two major issues.

Lesser Balbae did perform some trade most of its production was used domestically with herring, salmon, deer hides, coaling, ship building, logging, ducks, limited rice farming and a few hardier vegetables.

Its production went up as the population grew and shipbuiding and fishing expanded.

To begin with, you're underestimating the necessity of rice, or other similar crops, such as wheat and barley, as the major source of grain. Extensive efforts are required for terracing, which is extremely difficult to accomplish with limited manpower, not to mention that the extremely limited territory itself requires constant conflicts with the natives. Growing vegetables also requires extensive farming, not to mention significant land and domesticated animals, such as oxen, and that it will take at least a few centuries in order to breed suitable cultivars, without which significant population growth is virtually impossible. The draft animals, if a significant amount are brought over, which is unlikely, also cannot be slaughtered for meat, due to Buddhism, not to mention that they must be maintained in order to farm the land extensively.

In other words, the island has to trade extensively, possibly with a ratio of around 3:1 in terms of imports versus exports, with its neighbors in order to prevent mass malnutrition and starvation. However, the Liao will restrict most trading contacts with the island for about two centuries because of limited profits, not to mention that the court would be extremely unwilling to recognize an exiled government. The inhabitants simply cannot subside solely on fish, and with the limited manpower, it will be extremely unlikely to successfully trade enough fish, wood, and/or coal (other resources would generally not be desired in Manchuria) in order to receive much more, as they will need most of the potential exports in order to survive. The only other alternatives would be overfishing and deforestation, but that will essentially mean suicide in the long term.

Lesser Balhae's demographics were about

4000 natives under Balhaean rule

6000 Balhaean with 3500 of them having some native ancestry

2000 natives assimilated as balhaeans

1000 Jin people

1000 people of unknown ancestories.

Afrter the Fall of Jin the Jurchen refugees numbered 12,000 that entered Lesser Balhae. Many were fleeing soldiers. During the Jin-Mongol war Lesser Balhae fearing possible mongol incursion stocked up supplies and built up its meager army to a force of 2200 with 800 native auxileries and 3000 jin conscripts and former soldiers made to fight for Lesser Balhae in exchange for assistance.

Let's say that these numbers were accomplished, with extremely minimal conflicts before the Mongol invasions in order to maintain the hypothetical state's stability, which I would consider to be highly unlikely to begin with. How are future archaeologists and historians supposed to estimate these numbers? The Mongol invasion(s) will devastate the land, the vast majority of records will be virtually destroyed, numerous inhabitants will be sold into slavery, and the demographics would have gone thorough irreversible changes. As a comparison, not a single extant detailed census (although very rough estimations of the total population, but not segments of the whole, are extant) from Silla, Goryeo, or Joseon, or a total of 1200+ years, is available today, mostly due to the chaos incited by outsiders. The Mongols in this scenario would have attempted to wreck widespread devastation on the geographically limited state to the point where it would take at least centuries to recover significantly.

In other words, only rough estimates should be provided, and limited to amounts concerning "settlers" and "natives," but nothing more.
 
I'm just going to address two major issues.



To begin with, you're underestimating the necessity of rice, or other similar crops, such as wheat and barley, as the major source of grain. Extensive efforts are required for terracing, which is extremely difficult to accomplish with limited manpower, not to mention that the extremely limited territory itself requires constant conflicts with the natives. Growing vegetables also requires extensive farming, not to mention significant land and domesticated animals, such as oxen, and that it will take at least a few centuries in order to breed suitable cultivars, without which significant population growth is virtually impossible. The draft animals, if a significant amount are brought over, which is unlikely, also cannot be slaughtered for meat, due to Buddhism, not to mention that they must be maintained in order to farm the land extensively.

In other words, the island has to trade extensively, possibly with a ratio of around 3:1 in terms of imports versus exports, with its neighbors in order to prevent mass malnutrition and starvation. However, the Liao will restrict most trading contacts with the island for about two centuries because of limited profits, not to mention that the court would be extremely unwilling to recognize an exiled government. The inhabitants simply cannot subside solely on fish, and with the limited manpower, it will be extremely unlikely to successfully trade enough fish, wood, and/or coal (other resources would generally not be desired in Manchuria) in order to receive much more, as they will need most of the potential exports in order to survive. The only other alternatives would be overfishing and deforestation, but that will essentially mean suicide in the long term.



Let's say that these numbers were accomplished, with extremely minimal conflicts before the Mongol invasions in order to maintain the hypothetical state's stability, which I would consider to be highly unlikely to begin with. How are future archaeologists and historians supposed to estimate these numbers? The Mongol invasion(s) will devastate the land, the vast majority of records will be virtually destroyed, numerous inhabitants will be sold into slavery, and the demographics would have gone thorough irreversible changes. As a comparison, not a single extant detailed census (although very rough estimations of the total population, but not segments of the whole, are extant) from Silla, Goryeo, or Joseon, or a total of 1200+ years, is available today, mostly due to the chaos incited by outsiders. The Mongols in this scenario would have attempted to wreck widespread devastation on the geographically limited state to the point where it would take at least centuries to recover significantly.

In other words, only rough estimates should be provided, and limited to amounts concerning "settlers" and "natives," but nothing more.

Ok here is the deal as i just accidently deleted the next post and will have to rewrite it i will just let on about some more of the economic background information.

Livestock had reached Sakhalin since before the fall of balhae but that was mostly for trade and slaughter by natives. Out post which had troops that married native women sometimes had men who farmed but that was very limited and got little returns beyond feeding the outpost themselves.

Most of the goods obtained on the island at this time was gotten from the native peoples through tribute or trade.

In the Lesser Balhae period wealthier balhaean families did reach lesser Balhae and brought what they could to set themselves up as merchents. Some purchased from overseas but this did little to expand the stock of goods on the island. But the Horses brought by troops did play a part as some were used as live stock but this caused many to be loss.

In terms of limited trade i meant it in terms of the mainland states as the balhaeans did all they could to build up infrstructure and survive but that was as many would geuss a drop in the bucket of mainland states economies. Most of the goods Lesser Balhae produced was used domestically though and rice production like all farming was limited by the environment.

There was periods of starvation and death caused by this but overfishing was used as the main means of feeding the populace at these times with minimums of plant foods. Some uncommon food sources were used at times as well learned from local natives or japanese sources.

Then during the Mongol invasion period there was influence by Japanese in Lesser Balhae as Lesser Balhae had contacts with Japan's court and in particular the Kamakura Shogunate of the Houjou clan. They and their samurai culture influenced Lesser Balhae and sent an advisor court.

It is from Japanese records Yuan records, and Chinese records that information on Lesser Balhae would survive and possibly mention in what Korean sources of the period can be found. There would be some surviving remnants and bits and pieces of records found of Lesser Balhaes but it was ravaged during the Yuan period and didn't leave much after its fall. But much of this is going to be guess work by historians and some things will be wrong.

Lesser Balhae won't survive into the modern Era and is very close to its collapse in the Yuan period. It will have collapsed before Goryeo's fall. But its influence while minimum in the record of East Aisa's history will have a unique impact in the future. Starting really in the Japanese Karafuto Era till after the Fall of Imperial Japan.
 
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