WI: Kingdom of Israel conquers Phoenicia.

[SuperMarioBros99thx]

Given how Kingdom of Israel is not very presented in the AH.com, again i give it a shot with this question.
What would happen to the Kingdom of Israel led by David or Solomon if they conquered Phoenicia? (In long, whole Phoenicia)

 

[Arkenfolm]

The Bible says Tyre and Sidon were surrounded by the Tribe of Asher, but not part of them. 1 Kings 11 says that a woman from Sidon Solomon married helped lead him into idolatry. Queen Jezebel was also from Sidon. The Bible says a lot of negative things about Tyre. Otherwise the Phoenicians are very close cousins to the Hebrews, speaking a very similar language (Phoenician/Punic is the closest related language to Biblical Hebrew) and sharing a similar culture outside of the whole Judaism thing (they worshipped the same gods in similar ways outside of the whole henotheism of the Jews). If the Israelites conquered them, then they might be incorporated into the Israelite nation and thus worship Yahweh as well, but you'd be permanently changing the foundations of Judaism assuming there even is a "Judaism" to speak of.

But could they? Solomon traded pretty heavily with them to build the First Temple, and clearly both sides benefitted greatly since it helped Tyre become a major city. And then you have the fact that the united Kingdom of Israel was probably very, very loosely organised, and thus the Phoenicians would be among the first to assert independence once Solomon/whoever died.

 

[Pellaeon]

The Phoenicians supplied the Israelites with ships, trading connections, and timber. Even the bible acknowledges this and I don't think Solomon or any of his successors would want to kill that golden goose.

 

[danteheadman]

Lets suppose that the Israelites did, in fact, conquer Tyre and Sidon. And that the Israelites treated the Phoenicians as they did the other Canaanite peoples they conquered (cultural absorption and religious syncretism through association / conflation of YHWH with local gods, not genocide).

It would mean (if Phoenician trade-colonialism in the Mediterranean isn't butterflied away) that Carthage et al are Jewish in some way. Possibly even majority Jewish, as the OTL Judean Levant was and as (I presume) the ITTL whole Levant would be.

How that would impact the religious and cultural makeup of the Med, I have no idea. Especially w.r.t. Roman attitudes of "Carthago delenda est." Would it butterfly away Jesus or widespread Roman adoption of Christianity? Probably!

 

[Arkenfolm]

But this would be at such an early date that the concept of Judaism wouldn't exist. It was people who worshipped Yahweh above all other gods. And it would be associated with the northern tribes of Israel, which were definitely not Jewish (aside from being Hebrews). Why wouldn't these Phoenicians still stick to their old gods, just with more emphasis on Yahweh? And for Carthage and their colonies, they would definitely still incorporate local gods. If we assume there is a Roman state which conquers the region, then maybe it means Yahweh gets incorporated more into Greco-Roman religion. Which to some degree, he already was OTL.

 

[danteheadman]

But this would be at such an early date that the concept of Judaism wouldn't exist. It was people who worshipped Yahweh above all other gods. And it would be associated with the northern tribes of Israel, which were definitely not Jewish (aside from being Hebrews). Why wouldn't these Phoenicians still stick to their old gods, just with more emphasis on Yahweh? And for Carthage and their colonies, they would definitely still incorporate local gods. If we assume there is a Roman state which conquers the region, then maybe it means Yahweh gets incorporated more into Greco-Roman religion. Which to some degree, he already was OTL.

Well, that is what happened OTL in the southern Levant: the Israelites were henotheistic and regularly worshipped other deities, to the frustration of the Jerusalem Temple authorities. Israelite henotheism transitioned to monotheism during the Babylonian Captivity under the Neo-Babylonian Empire (which also conquered the whole Levant).

Why would the inclusion of more Levantine peoples into Israel change that?

You might be able to argue that Carthage, OTL a Phoenician colony, if it exists ITTL as an Israelite colony, might not transition to monotheism because of its distance from the Levant. Perhaps it is able to influence the Levantine Israelites to butterfly the transition to monotheism?

I don't know. Seems like a long shot.

 

[Arkenfolm]

Well, that is what happened OTL in the southern Levant: the Israelites were henotheistic and regularly worshipped other deities, to the frustration of the Jerusalem Temple authorities. Israelite henotheism transitioned to monotheism during the Babylonian Captivity under the Neo-Babylonian Empire (which also conquered the whole Levant).

Why would the inclusion of more Levantine peoples into Israel change that?

You might be able to argue that Carthage, OTL a Phoenician colony, if it exists ITTL as an Israelite colony, might not transition to monotheism because of its distance from the Levant. Perhaps it is able to influence the Levantine Israelites to butterfly the transition to monotheism?

I don't know. Seems like a long shot.

That's exactly what I'm saying with Carthage (and Utica, and other would-be colonies). They're too far away to be influenced. And what about the Kingdom of Samaria/Northern Kingdom? It will obviously still exist, but it will be even more dominant and powerful thanks to its control over the Phoenician cities. Or would it have control over them? There were quite a few coups and rebellions against the Northern Kingdom, after all, so why would the Phoenicians not just break loose? It will still likely get destroyed by the Assyrians, Babylonians, or another major empire. And in any case, the Northern Kingdom was repeatedly described in the Bible as idolators with wicked rulers, meaning they definitely didn't follow what Jerusalem wanted them to. This would include the Phoenicians. Hence why the biggest changes would be more emphasis on Yahweh in their religion, but not in the sense of later Judaism.

Carthage's chief god in OTL was Ba'al. Perhaps in ITTL, it would be Yahweh, worshipped alongside his wife Asherah (or another appropriate Semitic goddess?)

 

[Emperor Norton I]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal_Hammon

 

[SuperMarioBros99thx]

Now from this i got that with Phoenicia conquered by Israel, it could well be Jewish (Israelite) indeed. How Jewish Phoenicia and Carthage would influence Rome and Greeks? Of course world would be different from IOTL, once again.

 

[Ahab]

If the Northern Kingdom of Israel can keep hold on Phoenicia it might get powerful and rich enogh to re-conquer Judea and reunite the kingdoms, as some kings were very close already

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

Now from this i got that with Phoenicia conquered by Israel, it could well be Jewish (Israelite) indeed. How Jewish Phoenicia and Carthage would influence Rome and Greeks? Of course world would be different from IOTL, once again.

Could Judaism get so dominant in the Mediterranean that the peoples of the Italian peninsula begin adopting it, rather than Greek polytheism?

 

[Alex Zetsu]

How big is Phoenicia anyways?

 

[Mr_Fanboy]

How big is Phoenicia anyways?

It's not just Phoenicia itself, it's the fact that Phoenicia had colonies throughout the Mediterranean.

 

[raharris1973]

Could Judaism get so dominant in the Mediterranean that the peoples of the Italian peninsula begin adopting it, rather than Greek polytheism?

The Italians and Roman people "adopted" Greek polytheism? What did they do for religion before that?

 

[JoshuaTheRoman]

Could Judaism get so dominant in the Mediterranean that the peoples of the Italian peninsula begin adopting it, rather than Greek polytheism?

The Italians and Roman people "adopted" Greek polytheism? What did they do for religion before that?

This is a huge misconception I've seen almost everywhere. Italians didn't just copy Greek religion whole-sale. Both Greeks and Italians descended from Proto-Indo-Europeans, and shared much of their religious beliefs long before substantial contact with each other.

 

[agisXIV]

For reference, in the Bible the Phoenicians were referred to as Caananites and there land as Canaan

 

[The Professor]

Could a more Hellenistic Judaism take sway here?
One assumes that the addition of Phoenicia extends the varieties of Judaism and under a similar Achaemenid Empire these are tolerated equally. Then comes the Macedonians and Hellenistic ideas.
The existence of more versions of Judaism might then lead to a Hellenistic grouping dominating.

 

[DarkKayder]

The Italians and Roman people "adopted" Greek polytheism? What did they do for religion before that?

The Roman deities predate contact with the Greeks, but their gods "personalities" and mythos were a product of identification with the Greek gods. For instance, Jupiter was already the king of the gods, fitting the indo-european archetype of the Sky Father, but it was from this cultural exchange that he became a lightning bolt-throwing pervert, as well as brother to Neptune and Orcus.

 

[Mongo]

If the Northern Kingdom of Israel can keep hold on Phoenicia it might get powerful and rich enogh to re-conquer Judea and reunite the kingdoms, as some kings were very close already

Well of course you would want that! (Looks at your screen name.)

 

[Ahab]

Well of course you would want that! (Looks at your screen name.)

Hahaha!
Actually, Ahab was more about building alliances then conquering, but I believe that he could have easily done that, which is my favorite biblical POD, king Ahab deciding to unite the kingdoms in the name of the lord and then creating an empire which could fight of the Assyrians.