WI: King Petros I instead of King Othon?

I was inspired to this WI by a single post of @ByzantineCaesar where Pedro, duque of Bragança, former emperor of Brasil (as Pedro I) and King of Portugal (as Pedro IV) is offered the Greek throne. I'm not sure if this is realistic or not, but I think it would be cool to see someone else (who's not Othon of Bavaria) take power in Greece. There are four essential PODs in the post before Pedro is even offered the crown:

1) Kapodistrias proceeds to form powerful alliances with important political figures and war heroes, building himself a base of support
2) Kapodistrias survives his assassination attempt
3) Othon dies of an illness in Stockholm
4) Pedro survives his OTL death, and manages a full recovery (apparently).

And then he gets offered the Greek crown, ups and relocates to Greece after beating the Miguelistes and starts a new dynasty there with Amelia of Leuchtenberg.

Can we do this? I think it would be interesting to see, for sure. ByzantineCaesar had some interesting ideas in the post, but never fleshed them out in a full-fledged or even came back to the idea, so if they could climb on board with suggestions that would be equally cool.
 
IIRC I prepared that post for a long defunct NG. Unfortunately it's been a while and I don't remember where I was heading to, though I still think it's an interesting POD.
 
IIRC I prepared that post for a long defunct NG. Unfortunately it's been a while and I don't remember where I was heading to, though I still think it's an interesting POD.

Would you like to posit any differences that there would be from OTL (can be what you mentioned in the post or ones that didn't make it into the final cut)?

I for one am curious as to how this would affect things religious-wise. The Braganças are a traditionally Catholic dynasty who have converted. Would we see an earlier dialogue between the Catholic and Orthodox churches?

And while Othon (or rather his dad) was extremely philhellenic, I'm not sure Pedro was, which means the whole set-up and approach of his reign would be different. No Athens as capital I could see being one thing. Kapodistrias surviving could also have interesting effects, especially if Petros retains him as chief minister
 

Vuu

Banned
Heh, nobody has the audacity to pull a Serbia and put exclusively domestic leaders on the throne. Heck, if everyone had done so, WW1 would be much less awkward and not technically domestic violence gone out of hand :px'Dx'Dx'Dx'D
 
Pedro's case is very interesting as the offer for the Greek crown came in April 1822 while the country was still in the midst of the war against the Ottomans. I don't know if he would accept the offer in such a case, but if he did he wouldn't be a bad candidate for the job in my opinion. He was relatively liberal for his time being against slavery and he was a strong supporter of a constitutional government, unlike Otto thus avoiding many of the problems Otto faced in Greece. He would also be diplomatically acceptable to the Powers as well, since he is the Prince of a minor power and would likely have the support of Britain for his candidacy as well given the close relationship between Britain and Portugal.

Perhaps if the negotiations went on longer he may accept after an ATL battle of Dervenakia or if he had no children in line for the throne in Portugal he may be more prone to adventurism. I will say that his acceptance of the Greek Crown during their War for Independence would help to unite the Greeks behind him somewhat, stabilize the government, and possibly speed up their recognition by the powers. Overall, his acceptance would likely be an improvement for Greece.
 
Heh, nobody has the audacity to pull a Serbia and put exclusively domestic leaders on the throne. Heck, if everyone had done so, WW1 would be much less awkward and not technically domestic violence gone out of hand :px'Dx'Dx'Dx'D

Who's talking about a domestic candidate?

Pedro's case is very interesting as the offer for the Greek crown came in April 1822 while the country was still in the midst of the war against the Ottomans. I don't know if he would accept the offer in such a case, but if he did he wouldn't be a bad candidate for the job in my opinion. He was relatively liberal for his time being against slavery and he was a strong supporter of a constitutional government, unlike Otto thus avoiding many of the problems Otto faced in Greece. He would also be diplomatically acceptable to the Powers as well, since he is the Prince of a minor power and would likely have the support of Britain for his candidacy as well given the close relationship between Britain and Portugal.

Perhaps if the negotiations went on longer he may accept after an ATL battle of Dervenakia or if he had no children in line for the throne in Portugal he may be more prone to adventurism. I will say that his acceptance of the Greek Crown during their War for Independence would help to unite the Greeks behind him somewhat, stabilize the government, and possibly speed up their recognition by the powers. Overall, his acceptance would likely be an improvement for Greece.

That would make for an interesting time. Why on earth did they offer in 1822? He was the Crown Prince of Portugal/Emperor of Brasil half a world away. What set him so apart from the rest of Europe's royals? And I don't think Britain will support him. They had their own candidate in the future Leopold I of Belgium that they were pushing forward IIRC.

But be that as it may, how would Greece do better (bigger borders etc, beyond recognition of the powers?) were he on the throne?
 
Who's talking about a domestic candidate?



That would make for an interesting time. Why on earth did they offer in 1822? He was the Crown Prince of Portugal/Emperor of Brasil half a world away. What set him so apart from the rest of Europe's royals? And I don't think Britain will support him. They had their own candidate in the future Leopold I of Belgium that they were pushing forward IIRC.

But be that as it may, how would Greece do better (bigger borders etc, beyond recognition of the powers?) were he on the throne?
That's a good question and one I don't know the answer to sadly.

If he were on the Greek throne I think he would have provided the Greeks with some semblance of stability in their government both during the war and after it. The Greeks were unfortunately prone to infighting during the War for Independence as the leading men of Greece frequently fought for control of the state. They would go on to fight no less than 3 civil wars between 1823 and 1832, during which time several prominent men were murdered in cold blood by rival factions including Ioannis Kapodistrias in 1831. It also had the unintended consequence of dividing and weakening the Greeks immediately prior to the Ottoman and Egyptian campaigns of 1825, 1826, and 1827 which would see the Greeks reduced to a small sliver of territory along the Eastern Peloponnese and the Aegean Islands by the Fall of 1827. If Pedro is king of Greece he provides a singular figure for which the Greeks can rally around rather than their local chieftains or captains and while I won't say that he would remove all the infighting or factionalism he would certainly mitigate the issue somewhat. A more united and stable Greece would also be more capable of taking advantage of the intervention of the Powers in 1828 and 1829 to liberate more territory before the armistice in September 1829.

Pedro would also provide the Greeks with some measure of legitimacy to the crowned heads of Europe who were generally mixed about the Greek Revolution. While they certainly sympathized with the Greeks as they were a Christian people subject to oppression by the Turks, they didn't wish to disturb the status quo for the sake of supposed bandits and radical revolutionaries, especially so soon after the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars. But if Pedro were King of the Greeks during the war, it would likely remove part of this problem as the Powers would no longer be dealing with a bunch of raucous Greek rebels, but rather they would be dealing with one of their own, a fellow nobleman from Western Europe. As cynical as that may seem, the Powers didn't trust the Greeks to not fight themselves rather than the Ottomans so they chose to sit and wait until they were finally forced to intervene as a result of the public outcry in favor of the Greeks. Pedro's acceptance of the Greek crown in 1822 may in turn speed up the process that led to the Powers intervention in favor of the Greeks, although I can't really say definitively how much earlier it would be.

So in effect, this Greece could be more stable, more united, it could have more land, and it could potentially be much wealthier as well by the end of the war. After the War, you also avoid most of the issues that Otto faced namely the enactment and enforcement of the Constitution, the lack of an heir as Otto appears to have suffered from infertility in OTL, and he won't antagonize Britain to the extent Otto did as well, or at least I don't believe he would.
 
So in effect, this Greece could be more stable, more united, it could have more land, and it could potentially be much wealthier as well by the end of the war. After the War, you also avoid most of the issues that Otto faced namely the enactment and enforcement of the Constitution, the lack of an heir as Otto appears to have suffered from infertility in OTL, and he won't antagonize Britain to the extent Otto did as well, or at least I don't believe he would.

More united and more stable's good. More land? Where and what? Ionian islands maybe? Wealthier? Because of the more land? or for other reasons

I've read Othon's lack of an heir was his wife's fault rather than his (it could have been neither could have heirs - although wasn't there a rumor that Othon had a bastard son in Greece (or was that someone else?), since she apparently suffered from an underdeveloped uterus (Mullerian agnesis or somesuch).
 
More united and more stable's good. More land? Where and what? Ionian islands maybe? Wealthier? Because of the more land? or for other reasons

I've read Othon's lack of an heir was his wife's fault rather than his (it could have been neither could have heirs - although wasn't there a rumor that Othon had a bastard son in Greece (or was that someone else?), since she apparently suffered from an underdeveloped uterus (Mullerian agnesis or somesuch).
Crete and Samos are probably the most likely additions considering they were almost included in Greece in OTL were it not for Wellington's distrust of the Greek's stability, had any other Prime Minister been in charge of Britain at the time Greece likely would have gotten them in 1830 as opposed to 1908 and 1912 respectively. In fact, Leopold of Saxe-Coburg, OTL's Leopold I of Belgium, had accepted the Greek Crown on the condition Crete and Samos be included in the Greek State and when they were not Leopold withdrew his acceptance. Samos was eventually made into an autonomous principality after the war in 1832 and Crete would remain a headache for the Ottomans for many decades until they finally made it an autonomous principality as well in 1898. The Ionian Islands would probably be ceded to Greece at a later date considering they still had some value to Britain at the time, although that value was steadily diminishing.

Economically, Crete and/or Samos would add tens of thousands of people to Greece which would definitely increase tax revenue for the Greek Government. These islands, especially Crete, sat on important trade routes making them very good sources of customs dues and port fees which in turn help the Greek economy even more. Additionally, Crete is a very good producer of agricultural goods like olives and oranges, even to this day Crete has a prominent agricultural industry allowing it to not be reliant on tourism for its economy.

I was under the impression that Otto was the one to blame for his lack of heirs with Amalia, but I could be wrong.
 
Crete and Samos are probably the most likely additions considering they were almost included in Greece in OTL were it not for Wellington's distrust of the Greek's stability, had any other Prime Minister been in charge of Britain at the time Greece likely would have gotten them in 1830 as opposed to 1908 and 1912 respectively. In fact, Leopold of Saxe-Coburg, OTL's Leopold I of Belgium, had accepted the Greek Crown on the condition Crete and Samos be included in the Greek State and when they were not Leopold withdrew his acceptance. Samos was eventually made into an autonomous principality after the war in 1832 and Crete would remain a headache for the Ottomans for many decades until they finally made it an autonomous principality as well in 1898. The Ionian Islands would probably be ceded to Greece at a later date considering they still had some value to Britain at the time, although that value was steadily diminishing.

Economically, Crete and/or Samos would add tens of thousands of people to Greece which would definitely increase tax revenue for the Greek Government. These islands, especially Crete, sat on important trade routes making them very good sources of customs dues and port fees which in turn help the Greek economy even more. Additionally, Crete is a very good producer of agricultural goods like olives and oranges, even to this day Crete has a prominent agricultural industry allowing it to not be reliant on tourism for its economy.

Couldn't remember if it was Crete or Cyprus that Greece wanted but didn't get till later (although wasn't that also the reason they hoped to get Prince Alfred as king, because he would bring those with him?).

So we have a richer Greece, how would Petros go about ensuring that it's more stable? You mentioned the infighting that most countries seemed to think would lead it to implode, and Petros maybe being able to take charge of that, how long (years) would it maybe take before the country isn't so plagued by clan warfare? Also, would this larger Greece be as expansionist as 19th century Greece was? And a question I asked above, would Petros' Catholic-to-Orthodox conversion do anything? Othon didn't convert (nor did his wife AFAIK), and it caused issues with the Greeks IIRC. Would Petros' willing conversion affect the relations between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church any, if at all?
 
Couldn't remember if it was Crete or Cyprus that Greece wanted but didn't get till later (although wasn't that also the reason they hoped to get Prince Alfred as king, because he would bring those with him?).

So we have a richer Greece, how would Petros go about ensuring that it's more stable? You mentioned the infighting that most countries seemed to think would lead it to implode, and Petros maybe being able to take charge of that, how long (years) would it maybe take before the country isn't so plagued by clan warfare? Also, would this larger Greece be as expansionist as 19th century Greece was? And a question I asked above, would Petros' Catholic-to-Orthodox conversion do anything? Othon didn't convert (nor did his wife AFAIK), and it caused issues with the Greeks IIRC. Would Petros' willing conversion affect the relations between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church any, if at all?
Britain wouldn't "gain" Cyprus until after the Russo-Turkish War in 1878. I believe the Greeks wanting Prince Alfred as their King in 1862/1863 had more to do with achieving closer relations with Britain and possibly acquiring the Ionian Islands.

Generally, the major infighting between the various Greek factions didn't begin until late 1822, early 1823 so if Pedro acted quickly he could potentially cut off most of it off the unrest. The best way of doing so would be how Kapodistrias attempted to do it in 1828, through centralization and the development of state run institutions. By centralizing the military and the collection of revenue under the government he could effectively diminish the power of the regional magnates and power brokers in Greece while empowering the state. He would also need to establish government tax collectors, judges, administrators, etc as Greece lacked most government run institutions for much of the war which unfortunately hampered their efforts to fight and fund. Depending on how rigorous Pedro is in establishing himself in Greece and setting up his government, it could take anywhere from a few months to a few years to do all this and ensure that their isn't any substantial conflict between the factions. Obviously there will still be bad blood between many of the notables and the klephts, the islanders and the mainlanders, but it shouldn't lead to violence between them...hopefully.

I also don't see why a slightly larger Greece wouldn't want to expand into traditionally Greek territories that are primarily inhabited by Greeks, if anything their improved success may inspire them to go further.

Pedro converting to Orthodoxy would be beneficial to his rule and help ingratiate himself to the Greek people, but I don't think it is entirely necessary. That said, his children will almost definitely be Orthodox that is probably non-negotiable. I honestly don't think Pedro converting or not converting would have much of an impact on Orthodox Catholic affairs or relations, but I'm not entirely sure on the matter.
 
Generally, the major infighting between the various Greek factions didn't begin until late 1822, early 1823 so if Pedro acted quickly he could potentially cut off most of it off the unrest. The best way of doing so would be how Kapodistrias attempted to do it in 1828, through centralization and the development of state run institutions. By centralizing the military and the collection of revenue under the government he could effectively diminish the power of the regional magnates and power brokers in Greece while empowering the state. He would also need to establish government tax collectors, judges, administrators, etc as Greece lacked most government run institutions for much of the war which unfortunately hampered their efforts to fight and fund. Depending on how rigorous Pedro is in establishing himself in Greece and setting up his government, it could take anywhere from a few months to a few years to do all this and ensure that their isn't any substantial conflict between the factions. Obviously there will still be bad blood between many of the notables and the klephts, the islanders and the mainlanders, but it shouldn't lead to violence between them...hopefully.

So Petros would try and do what Kapodistrias did OTL, except that he's going to be a foreigner in the country - much like Othon, who came to Greece on a British warship with a coterie of foreign ministers IIRC - so he's going to need someone with more clout (if only temporarily). Kapodistrias seems to fit the bill (unless you can suggest someone else). Which makes keeping Kapodistrias alive a priority (for now, anyway).

If Petros has a son by his wife - 1822 he was already married to the Catholic Leopoldina of Austria, and by the time of @ByzantineCaesar's post, he's already married to a Beauharnais wife (and of course the POD of him surviving can do all sorts of things to the Beauharnais - from Auguste of Leuchtenberg surviving and replacing Fernando II as consort, to a Beauharnais successfully being chosen as king of the Belgians - can't remember if it was Auguste or Maximilien who was up for the position) - he's probably going to want to try for a Russian grand duchess (or at the very least a Protestant) as wife for his heir, no? Can't see the Orthodox Greeks taking well to a Catholic queen-consort.
 
So Petros would try and do what Kapodistrias did OTL, except that he's going to be a foreigner in the country - much like Othon, who came to Greece on a British warship with a coterie of foreign ministers IIRC - so he's going to need someone with more clout (if only temporarily). Kapodistrias seems to fit the bill (unless you can suggest someone else). Which makes keeping Kapodistrias alive a priority (for now, anyway).

If Petros has a son by his wife - 1822 he was already married to the Catholic Leopoldina of Austria, and by the time of @ByzantineCaesar's post, he's already married to a Beauharnais wife (and of course the POD of him surviving can do all sorts of things to the Beauharnais - from Auguste of Leuchtenberg surviving and replacing Fernando II as consort, to a Beauharnais successfully being chosen as king of the Belgians - can't remember if it was Auguste or Maximilien who was up for the position) - he's probably going to want to try for a Russian grand duchess (or at the very least a Protestant) as wife for his heir, no? Can't see the Orthodox Greeks taking well to a Catholic queen-consort.
Of all the Greek statesmen during the early 19th Century, Ioannis Kapodistrias is by far the best, so if you can manage to get him in the country earlier than OTL then it would be a major boon to Pedro and the Greeks. He did have a bit of an abrasive personality apparently and he tended to distrust those around him in OTL, resulting in him only appointing people he could trust to positions of power, but these negatives are generally outweighed by his brilliant ideas and his great talents as a diplomat and statesman.

I believe it was Auguste de Beauharnais who was considered for the Belgian Crown in OTL, but he was eventually passed over in favor of Leopold.

The best choice for Pedro, or his child if Maria Leopoldina is still around ITTL, would almost certainly be a Russian Grand Duchess. She would be Orthodox Princess from Greece's closest ally Russia and she would come with a nice dowry as well making her a very nice candidate for the position. More importantly, the future Tsar Nicholas I has, or will have three daughters who would be about the same age as Pedro' prospective heir ITTL, with the oldest Maria Nikolaevna being born in 1819 and the youngest Alexandra Nikolaevna being born in 1825, provided she isn't butterflied away.
 
The best choice for Pedro, or his child if Maria Leopoldina is still around ITTL, would almost certainly be a Russian Grand Duchess. She would be Orthodox Princess from Greece's closest ally Russia and she would come with a nice dowry as well making her a very nice candidate for the position. More importantly, the future Tsar Nicholas I has, or will have three daughters who would be about the same age as Pedro' prospective heir ITTL, with the oldest Maria Nikolaevna being born in 1819 and the youngest Alexandra Nikolaevna being born in 1825, provided she isn't butterflied away.

In a conversation with @nandalf I found out that D. Joao VI originally wanted a Russian grand duchess or an Austrian archduchess for his son, as a counterweight to British influence in the New World. However, the Russians weren't really interested, while Austria was (hence we got Maria Leopoldine of Austria instead of say, Anna Pavlovna). However, nandalf also mentioned that Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaïevna (OTL queen of Württemberg with a gay husband who loved a guy named "Woodcock" - oh when history is stranger than fiction :) )was considered for Pedro II. Here, would a new monarchy (such as the Greek, even with an older dynasty) be considered a suitable match for the emperor's second daughter?

OTL, the whole thing (and possibly why I want to keep Maximilian de Beauharnais away from Russia, and letting his brother survive as consort of Portugal seems a good way to do that. (he was already landless, if he's landless and unlikely to inherit I don't think Nikolai I will even let him get a look in to marry Masha) was because Maria a.k.a. Masha married "low", Nikolai's younger daughters were obliged to take her place abroad. For Olga "Ollie" there was a match considered with the Crown Prince of Bavaria (future Maximilian II), but not sure why that foundered, it was hardly a question of religion, since he married a Protestant anyway. And her OTL brother-in-law, the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, was originally brought to Russia with the hopes of marrying her, but fell for her sister, Alexandra "Adini" ("a little moppet, but very sweet") instead, and Olga stepped aside. Olga was sort of reduced to a companion-piece to her mother on Alexandra Feodorovna's trips abroad for her lungs, when she met the future king of Württemberg in Italy IIRC. So, here, if a "new" monarchy isn't important enough to waste the emperor's eldest daughter on, Masha might be married elsewhere in Germany, which means Ollie can be sent to Greece, and Adini goes to Hesse as OTL. Although, Adini becoming queen of Greece might be better for her health - if only slightly.
 
The problem with this is that both Emperor of Brazil and King of Portugal are better jobs, in fact much better jobs. Pedro would never have accepted. Maybe his brother would have.
 
That's a good question and one I don't know the answer to sadly.

If he were on the Greek throne I think he would have provided the Greeks with some semblance of stability in their government both during the war and after it. The Greeks were unfortunately prone to infighting during the War for Independence as the leading men of Greece frequently fought for control of the state. They would go on to fight no less than 3 civil wars between 1823 and 1832, during which time several prominent men were murdered in cold blood by rival factions including Ioannis Kapodistrias in 1831. It also had the unintended consequence of dividing and weakening the Greeks immediately prior to the Ottoman and Egyptian campaigns of 1825, 1826, and 1827 which would see the Greeks reduced to a small sliver of territory along the Eastern Peloponnese and the Aegean Islands by the Fall of 1827. If Pedro is king of Greece he provides a singular figure for which the Greeks can rally around rather than their local chieftains or captains and while I won't say that he would remove all the infighting or factionalism he would certainly mitigate the issue somewhat. A more united and stable Greece would also be more capable of taking advantage of the intervention of the Powers in 1828 and 1829 to liberate more territory before the armistice in September 1829.

Pedro would also provide the Greeks with some measure of legitimacy to the crowned heads of Europe who were generally mixed about the Greek Revolution. While they certainly sympathized with the Greeks as they were a Christian people subject to oppression by the Turks, they didn't wish to disturb the status quo for the sake of supposed bandits and radical revolutionaries, especially so soon after the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars. But if Pedro were King of the Greeks during the war, it would likely remove part of this problem as the Powers would no longer be dealing with a bunch of raucous Greek rebels, but rather they would be dealing with one of their own, a fellow nobleman from Western Europe. As cynical as that may seem, the Powers didn't trust the Greeks to not fight themselves rather than the Ottomans so they chose to sit and wait until they were finally forced to intervene as a result of the public outcry in favor of the Greeks. Pedro's acceptance of the Greek crown in 1822 may in turn speed up the process that led to the Powers intervention in favor of the Greeks, although I can't really say definitively how much earlier it would be.

So in effect, this Greece could be more stable, more united, it could have more land, and it could potentially be much wealthier as well by the end of the war. After the War, you also avoid most of the issues that Otto faced namely the enactment and enforcement of the Constitution, the lack of an heir as Otto appears to have suffered from infertility in OTL, and he won't antagonize Britain to the extent Otto did as well, or at least I don't believe he would.





1822 it's a very bad timing to offer the crown to Pedro,he had just declared the Brazilian independence,was at the height of his popularity,and you are ignoring the elephant in the room,Dona Leopoldina,she was not only alive,but she pretty much was the brains behind Pedro and she was fully committed to the brazilian cause,remember,she consciously chose to stay in Brazil and the Brazilian crown over the Portuguese.She also influenced and did everything in her capacity to turn a very insecure D.Pedro to stay in Brazil.BY 1826/27 it's a whole new game,because even if she didn't die ,when Pedro was forced to abdicated, she would most certainly stay and be named regent for her kids.
 
1822 it's a very bad timing to offer the crown to Pedro,he had just declared the Brazilian independence,was at the height of his popularity,and you are ignoring the elephant in the room,Dona Leopoldina,she was not only alive,but she pretty much was the brains behind Pedro and she was fully committed to the brazilian cause,remember,she consciously chose to stay in Brazil and the Brazilian crown over the Portuguese.She also influenced and did everything in her capacity to turn a very insecure D.Pedro to stay in Brazil.BY 1826/27 it's a whole new game,because even if she didn't die ,when Pedro was forced to abdicated, she would most certainly stay and be named regent for her kids.
In all honesty I can't see Pedro ever really accepting the 1822 offer for the Greek Crown either as Portugal and Brazil are both much better options for him and his family. But, if he did for whatever crazy reason choose to accept the Greek offer he wouldn't have been a bad candidate for the job and he certainly would have been better than Otto which was what the OP was originally asking.
 
These PoDs are in the 1820s? Interesting... could I borrow it? And how would the Ottomans and British react to Petros I as King of Greece?
 
The original POD is a healthy Pedro being offered the Greek throne once again after he's abdicated in both Brazil and Portugal, after the Portuguese civil war.
 
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