WI: King John Burns the Magna Carta?

So I've just gotten back from watching the new Robin Hood movie and, once I got over my bad movie history-induced psychosis, I was left with a nonetheless interesting question:
what if King John, in 1215, refused to sign the Magna Carta? What would the Barons do? Would they side wiht Louis of France, who had lots of support in the south and had a large army on English soil, or would they rally together and raise one of their own as King?
 

Blair152

Banned
So I've just gotten back from watching the new Robin Hood movie and, once I got over my bad movie history-induced psychosis, I was left with a nonetheless interesting question:
what if King John, in 1215, refused to sign the Magna Carta? What would the Barons do? Would they side wiht Louis of France, who had lots of support in the south and had a large army on English soil, or would they rally together and raise one of their own as King?
England, and later, Britain, would have been more like France, OTL, where the Divine Right of Kings, was routinely asserted to stop change in its tracks.
Then the English Civil War in the 1640s would have been the English Revolution and opponents of Cromwell would have suffered through a Reign of Terror where they'd be placed on the gibbet.
 
England, and later, Britain, would have been more like France, OTL, where the Divine Right of Kings, was routinely asserted to stop change in its tracks.
Then the English Civil War in the 1640s would have been the English Revolution and opponents of Cromwell would have suffered through a Reign of Terror where they'd be placed on the gibbet.

Yeah, but in 1215 John had little power, half the country was out of his control and all the northern barons were hostile. If he'd refused to sign it would he, or indeed the Angevin dynasty, survived?
 
In reality, King John was in a really bad position. The country was bankrupt thanks to his brother, Richard the Lionheart, the French were pissed after Richard more or less plundered his way through the entire country and the barons in OTL actually invited Prince Louis of France to become the King after the Barons and John went to war with each other. He was even crowned King before the barons deserted him after John signed Magna Carta. If John did burn the Magna Carta as you suggest, either the Barons remove him and install one of their own to the throne, or bring a foreign ruler to the throne under stipulations of course.

Btw, Robin Hood had so much BS during the second half...just had to mention it
 
It's quite possible they would accept Louis.

I think there are two good reasons in favour of such a settlement, though there are probably a few good reasons against.

1) The English nobility at this point are quite French, in both culture and outlook.

2) The ambitious baron likes no King better than one who'll be far away, with many bigger, closer problems than what one of his vassals in England is up to.

The key thing for me, is that the early-1200s are prior to the Norman nobility in England fully Anglicising, and prior to the Hundred Years War. There's much less distance and hostility between English and French nobility than you get later.
 
If King John dosen't sign, it's not just the Crown Jewels he'll lose, it'll be the throne and probably his head as well.
 
If King John dosen't sign, it's not just the Crown Jewels he'll lose, it'll be the throne and probably his head as well.

Regicide might be going a bit far, but then again it isn't exactly unknown in England...

Honestly, more likely is that John does what he did IOTL, and what was pretty common practice for English kings in those days: make some promises, and then try to ignore them once the political situation evolves to the point where that is possible.
 
Regicide might be going a bit far, but then again it isn't exactly unknown in England...

Honestly, more likely is that John does what he did IOTL, and what was pretty common practice for English kings in those days: make some promises, and then try to ignore them once the political situation evolves to the point where that is possible.

That's essentially what he tried to do with Magna Carta.
 
That's essentially what he tried to do with Magna Carta.

But assuming he did burn the Magna Carta, we'd probably see the Barons move against King John and quickly deal with him. Then they'd probably bring Louis back to the throne. My mind's kinda divided at this point about whether Scotland, having seen the northern borders weakened in the war would launch an attack. Does anyone know what Scottish-Franco relations at this point are like? I know that they were really close during one point. If they weren't good, then I could see Louis forced into a war with weakened England.
 
I think cautiously friendly. If Louis does become King of England (a TL where that happened would be three shades of awesome) I could see him buying Scotland off some northern territory.

Berwick?
 
Saepe Fidelis, I really think you ought to make a timeline of this, this actually has a lot of potential :D
 
I think cautiously friendly. If Louis does become King of England (a TL where that happened would be three shades of awesome) I could see him buying Scotland off some northern territory.

Berwick?

I'm thinking of doing one, hence the question. Any ideas or comments for that?
 
So you're thinking he'd cede half of Northumbria and everything north maybe?

He might have to, but then that would be very dangerous. Louis only got the throne because the barons supported him, and the northern barons at that with their armies. You abandon the north, you will make great enemies of the nobility.

I have found something involving Scotland, however. Apparently, during the First Barons War (in which Louis was invited to become King), he came with French troops and was assisted by the Scottish who sent part of their army to Dover to join Louis' own army. It might be that Scotland in fact doesn't invade, but is given lands voluntarily in payment.
 
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