The Ki-43 was the most produced Japanese Army plane of World War II, and the second most overall, to only the Navy's A6M Zero. However, while Ki-43 was just as good as the Zero and arguably better, it had one problem the Zero did not, inadequate armament. The Ki-43 only had two 12.7 mm machine guns for most of its campaigns. An attempt to introduce 20 mm cannons was made near the end of the war, but was obviously too late. However the Japanese Army had a gun they could have provided the Ki-43, the 20 mm Ho-3 cannon, used in the Ki-45. So what if the Ki-43 had better armament from when it was introduced in 1941? How would this affect the air campaign in Burma and the Flying Tigers, or the B-29 bombing raids on Japan?
WI: Ki-43 with cannons
- Thread starter AbeLincoln1865
- Start date
Rate of fire and ammunition load would be a serious problem.
The Ki-43 wasn't that good at altitude, intercepting a B-29 would be difficult.
Running into a P-51 at altitude would be a disaster.
The Ki-43 wasn't that good at altitude, intercepting a B-29 would be difficult.
Running into a P-51 at altitude would be a disaster.
It would still be fragile and not have self sealing tanks. How much would the extra weight of guns and ammo affect it’s agility? Would the extra weight affect it’s performance at altitude as James asks?
Actually the Ki-43 got self sealing fuel tanks in late 1942, well before the Zero.
When they tried the Ki-43-IIIb with two 20mm cannon late in the war, that was the biggest problem, the increase in weight. They thought it doesn't worth the effort, and anyway there were Ki-84s and late model Ki-61 and Ki-44s available at the time which were better B-29 interceptors, if i'd change the Ki-43 i'd rather have them put it in production as soon as possible (in 1940 rather than spring 1941), with the structural issues sorted and the increased dive speed of -II to 650kph (-I was limited OTL to just 550kph), and sorting the Ho-103 MG ammo problems. OTL they daddled for a long time until they decided to put Ki-43 in production, and just two sentais had Ki-43s at the start of the war, rest had the obsolete Ki-27. In this ATL they could have all frontline sentais fighting in Burma, Malaya and Phillipines equipped with Ki-43 leaving remaining Ki-27 sentais for secondary theaters like China and home defence. Needless to say facing working, reliable and Ho-103 armed (with good ammo that doesn't explode in the barrel) Ki-43s would be quite a lot harder for the AVG.
Actually in my TL the same i would do with Ki-45, just put the damn thing in production in 1940 as is with two Ha-25 engines, don't wait another year for the Kai version, at least the Ki-45 will be a better bomber killer in 1941 and 1942 that either Ki-27 or Ki-43.
And while at it, same with Ki-44, don't diddle around, put it in full production in 1941, at least a couple of sentais would be equipped with it in early 1942.
Actually in my TL the same i would do with Ki-45, just put the damn thing in production in 1940 as is with two Ha-25 engines, don't wait another year for the Kai version, at least the Ki-45 will be a better bomber killer in 1941 and 1942 that either Ki-27 or Ki-43.
And while at it, same with Ki-44, don't diddle around, put it in full production in 1941, at least a couple of sentais would be equipped with it in early 1942.
I would have replaced the Ki-45 with the Ki-46, but the rest of that sounds better than OTL. On the other hand, a big problem the Ki-43 had was shooting down B-24's and the like due to their great protection. A cannon would solve this issue and the 1945 Ki-43-III with a 20 mm cannon worked fine (with a better engine to be fair).
marathag
Banned
The Ho-103 12.7 used a weaker round than the US M2 .50.
It weighed 50 pounds.
The Ho-5 20mm weighed 77 pounds
The Ki-43Ia had 1000hp, carried 149 gallons of fuel. The basic self sealing tanks on the Ki-43IIb dropped 5 gallons capacity for the rubber lining, and picked up 150 HP, twin 12.7mm and 800 pounds weight
The Ki-43IIIa picked up another 120 pounds in some armor, and larger fuel tanks for 173 gallons and another 80HP
What the Oscar needed a lot more motor than the 1700 cubic inches of the Sakae, not gradual improvement.
The slight weight increase for cannons wasn't the problem.
It weighed 50 pounds.
The Ho-5 20mm weighed 77 pounds
The Ki-43Ia had 1000hp, carried 149 gallons of fuel. The basic self sealing tanks on the Ki-43IIb dropped 5 gallons capacity for the rubber lining, and picked up 150 HP, twin 12.7mm and 800 pounds weight
The Ki-43IIIa picked up another 120 pounds in some armor, and larger fuel tanks for 173 gallons and another 80HP
What the Oscar needed a lot more motor than the 1700 cubic inches of the Sakae, not gradual improvement.
The slight weight increase for cannons wasn't the problem.
Firstly, they really should have considered amending their combat tactics once the Americans adopted more effective ones of their own. I'm not the best versed in aerial combat but I know that the Japanese kept doing the kind of same poorly organized turn and burn tactics over and over again, making it easy for the enemy to perfect his counter to it. Yes, maneuverability was the plane's one strong suit but there has to be some teamwork and coordination too!
Secondly, it's obvious that the Sakae engine's power limitations was the common problem among of both the Navy's and the Army's fighters. That's why I think they should have made better use of the Ki-44 through 1943 and gotten the Ki-84 into service by spring of 1944. The pilots may not have liked it, but it was overall the most potent option available for late 1942 until early 1944, as it was one of their few early single-engines with decent speed and firepower. Yes, the Hien was the best thing they had at that time but, really, that engine was always going to be too much for Japanese service, esccially when operating far from the home islands where spare parts and mechanics who could deal with it were harder to get. I say the Shoki was indeed the way to go. To that end, I wonder if there might have been a way to have made better synergistic use of the Ki-44's potency working with the Hayabusa's stupendous turning abilities.
Secondly, it's obvious that the Sakae engine's power limitations was the common problem among of both the Navy's and the Army's fighters. That's why I think they should have made better use of the Ki-44 through 1943 and gotten the Ki-84 into service by spring of 1944. The pilots may not have liked it, but it was overall the most potent option available for late 1942 until early 1944, as it was one of their few early single-engines with decent speed and firepower. Yes, the Hien was the best thing they had at that time but, really, that engine was always going to be too much for Japanese service, esccially when operating far from the home islands where spare parts and mechanics who could deal with it were harder to get. I say the Shoki was indeed the way to go. To that end, I wonder if there might have been a way to have made better synergistic use of the Ki-44's potency working with the Hayabusa's stupendous turning abilities.
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Just under 100 pounds, not counting the ammunition.
I wonder if it would might have been better to throw a pair of those MGs on the wings. Those were 50 pounds a piece. It may not help much with bombers but it sure gives the Hayabusa some sting against fighters.
Did they ever try a zero with extra machine guns instead of the cannon?
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I'm not a big fan of the Ki-44, thanks to Japanese pilots dislike of it during the war, and because it seems the Zero and Ki-43 could be better at intercepting B-29's. In the book B-29 Hunters of the JAAF by Henry Sakaida, on page 26, he says the Zero and 43's maneuverability meant that they could maintain a high altitude better than the 44, even if the 44 could climb faster.
Of course, none of those planes were good for intercepting the B-29. Don't forget that the B-29's defensive armament was actually an incredibly serious threat. Besides, thanks to those massaive engines, its speed was also just too great for a standard Oscar, let alone one with cannon. The B-29 wasn't going to get escorts any time soon so I say heavy twin engine fighters were the best way to go. The Ki-45 wasn't up to the job but Kawasaki's improved twins with the Kinsei were. Anything with the Homare would've worked well too.
Nope. It's just wiki, I'm afraid so don't put too much faith in it. Still, the weights seemed abouttrigjttome. The American equovelant of the Japanese Ho-103 is the 50 cal browning, which is somewhere bewteen 50 and 100 pounds. I'm less confident about the cannon, though the weight seems admittedly on the low side.
I have an old book of Japanese aircraft with a lot of technical stuff and a few schematics but nothing about the weight of the guns to my recollection.
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It seems the well sourced Pacific War Online Encyclopedia confirms those figures:
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/J/a/Japanese_12p7mm_Type_1_gun.htm
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/J/a/Japanese_20mm_Type_97_gun.html
Would an extra 50 pounds make that much of a difference in performance?
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/J/a/Japanese_12p7mm_Type_1_gun.htm
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/J/a/Japanese_20mm_Type_97_gun.html
Would an extra 50 pounds make that much of a difference in performance?
FBKampfer
Banned
Regarding the weight, the Ki-43 already had such a low wing loading, it could easily absorb the weight and still handily out maneuver anything else it met, save the obsolete biplanes, which it could have out ran.
And as for the impact on its speed, it hardly would have been significant with such a high amount of induced drag already generated by those big wings.
The original speed was already insufficient, and knocking a few mph off Vmax is unlikely to have hamstrung it.
Interception was already unlikely, and it lacked the firepower to pose a serious threat to bombers anyway.
It was an excellent dogfighter, but a poor war winner.
Where things get really interesting is if the Ki-43 is scrapped entirely, and the Ki-44 is the hot new fighter for the IJAAF in 1941 instead.
It was tougher, faster, and better climbing and better armed, while still maintaining a high degree of maneuverability.
And as for the impact on its speed, it hardly would have been significant with such a high amount of induced drag already generated by those big wings.
The original speed was already insufficient, and knocking a few mph off Vmax is unlikely to have hamstrung it.
Interception was already unlikely, and it lacked the firepower to pose a serious threat to bombers anyway.
It was an excellent dogfighter, but a poor war winner.
Where things get really interesting is if the Ki-43 is scrapped entirely, and the Ki-44 is the hot new fighter for the IJAAF in 1941 instead.
It was tougher, faster, and better climbing and better armed, while still maintaining a high degree of maneuverability.