WI: Kaiserliche Marine adapts Jeune Ecole

Except they can't, because the German capital ships weren't capable of sustaining themselves at sea for more than a couple of days. The handful of times they did it, it required heroic efforts akin to the Russian Baltic Fleet sailing to Vladivostok in 1905... we know how that ended up.

Endurance is just like speed, armor or armament - you get what you paid for. The Germans chose to build battleships that had average endurance, below average weapons, above average armor. Doesn't mean they couldn't have built battleships designed for much longer ranges. The Kaisers were the first turbine German battleships, designed for 25,000 tons about 8,000nm cruising on somewhere around 4,000 tons of coal with 10x12" guns and 21kt. Well rounded but if designed for high seas service, perhaps 8 x 12" guns, lighter armor and a heavier displacement, 23kt, and more fuel for longer range.
 
You forgot the Mediterranean. They'll need 16 BCs in the Home, NAWI, and Mediterranean stations if all 11 German BCs are in one place. Surely they won't put all of their battlecruisers together? The whole point would be to raid all over the place, therefore splitting their 11 up? That means the RN doesn't need as many BCs in one place. Also, being the defender, the RN could use a mixture of Dreadnoughts, pre-Dreadnougt and battlecruisers to fend off the German raiders. The onus in on the Germans to avoid the defences, not necessarily on the British to chase them down and catch them. British battlecruisers could be used to herd German BCs towards the RN heavies for destruction.

The French would be responsible for the Med.
 
It's not a matter of range, but of accomodation, reliability and self-maintenance capability. The Germans didn't have those - accomodation was cramped, stores capacity limited, and they relied on shore facilities for a lot of support.

The U-boats were more cramped than surface warships and were able to function just fine in the Atlantic.
 

Deleted member 94680

Endurance is just like speed, armor or armament - you get what you paid for. The Germans chose to build battleships that had average endurance, below average weapons, above average armor. Doesn't mean they couldn't have built battleships designed for much longer ranges. The Kaisers were the first turbine German battleships, designed for 25,000 tons about 8,000nm cruising on somewhere around 4,000 tons of coal with 10x12" guns and 21kt. Well rounded but if designed for high seas service, perhaps 8 x 12" guns, lighter armor and a heavier displacement, 23kt, and more fuel for longer range.

Building bigger and better Battleships is hardly Jeune Ecole, is it?
 

Archibald

Banned
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battleships_of_France

Turret ships


Liberté

The point I did tried to make (but got ignored) is that every pre-dread before the République class was a) an expensive prototype and b) a very flawed ship. Thanks the Jeune école for that.
 
Where the heck would France get 16 BCs from?

They wouldn't. But the French would still be responsible for the Med. Obviously, if the Germans were foolish enough to go into the Med with their BC fleet, then the British would slam the door at Gibraltar behind them. Problem solved.
 
The assertion that German battleships has particularly short range doesn't ring true to me. The Nassau had 2700t of coal and 160t of oil, the Dreadnought had 2900t coal and 1120t of oil. The oil was used to increase the burn rate of the coal rather than as a fuel itself, and the Nassau used reciprocating engines but efficient small tube boilers whereas the Dreadnought used efficient turbine but large tube boilers. So I'll need some serious marine engineering talk to convince me that German equivalent to the Dreadnought was particularly short on range in comparison.

South Carolina, with far better habitability standards than HSF or RN, had 2,374 tons of coal for 6,950 nautical miles@10kt, and considered short ranged by USN standards.

Nassau may have had more paper range, but crew would have been in poor condition to fight, due to bad ventilation, poor berthing and mess facilities.

SMS Moltke had theoretical range of 4120 nautical miles, but on her visit to the USA in 1912, the 3000 mile trip revealed that the Germans had to squirrel coal away in addition to the normal bunkers, similar to what the Russians did in 1905.
 
When its all said and done until the KM has the power to fight its way out of or avoid the RN controlling its access to the ocean its capital ships don't need any more range or ability to operate away from Germany. Perhaps if the CP won WW1 the design of German capital ships will change to reflect their acquisition of different bases and different operational requirements.
 
With all the surfaces raiders the royal navy is probably going to have plans for convoys before the out break of ww1. Which will decrease the need for battlecruisers since they would be part of a convoy instead of a hunting group for raiders. And convoys also help the royal navy against u-boats when they become a serious threat.
 
While there's little chance German merchant raiders could materially effect the battle of the Atlantic, convoys were not as effective against surface raiders as they were against U-boats - this is why PQ-17 was ordered to disperse when it was thought Tirpitz was coming. Combined arms.

Which will decrease the need for battlecruisers since they would be part of a convoy instead of a hunting group for raiders.

How can parcelling out one or two BC's to a convoy lead to a productive result for the RN assuming that 4 to 6 German BC's attack the convoy? Maybe the actual defensive scheme would be a lighter escort (armed with torpedoes) and a BC squadron strong enough to defeat the Germans cruising in some central location, hoping to get lucky, where the convoy attacked is near enough it can come up in support?
 
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When its all said and done until the KM has the power to fight its way out of or avoid the RN controlling its access to the ocean its capital ships don't need any more range or ability to operate away from Germany. Perhaps if the CP won WW1 the design of German capital ships will change to reflect their acquisition of different bases and different operational requirements.

The example of the Moltke is relevant to the navy Tirpitz designed, but not to the navy Tirpitz could have designed. If you have a 22,000 ton BC capable of 4,000nm and you need it to be capable of 10,000nm, then you'd have to spend an additional 5,000 tons displacement (or whatever) to carry the fuel.
 
The example of the Moltke is relevant to the navy Tirpitz designed, but not to the navy Tirpitz could have designed. If you have a 22,000 ton BC capable of 4,000nm and you need it to be capable of 10,000nm, then you'd have to spend an additional 5,000 tons displacement (or whatever) to carry the fuel.

What's the point of carrying enough coal for 10,000nm when you can't get past Scapa or Dover without being sunk by a force that outnumbers you by 3:2 regardless of refits and other availability?

Perhaps Germany's other option once the decide to withdraw from the naval race from 1912 is to place capital ship task forces around the world in their colonial possessions and do sweeps between them to cover wider anti commerce operations. Of course this would be mainly in the South Atlantic, Indian and Pacific oceans and do nothing to stop the oil from Mexico and huge imports from North America.
 
What's the point of carrying enough coal for 10,000nm when you can't get past Scapa or Dover without being sunk by a force that outnumbers you by 3:2 regardless of refits and other availability?

Dover I'm not so sure about, but the chances of getting past Scapa were much higher than you believe they were. That's why, for example, the HMS Audacious is currently sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean off the northern coast of Ireland.


Perhaps Germany's other option once the decide to withdraw from the naval race from 1912 is to place capital ship task forces around the world in their colonial possessions and do sweeps between them to cover wider anti commerce operations. Of course this would be mainly in the South Atlantic, Indian and Pacific oceans and do nothing to stop the oil from Mexico and huge imports from North America.

During the stormy dark winter months, think of the blockade like it was Swiss cheese.
 

Deleted member 9338

While there's little chance German merchant raiders could materially effect the battle of the Atlantic, convoys were not as effective against surface raiders as they were against U-boats - this is why PQ-17 was ordered to disperse when it was thought Tirpitz was coming. Combined arms.



How can parcelling out one or two BC's to a convoy lead to a productive result for the RN assuming that 4 to 6 German BC's attack the convoy? Maybe the actual defensive scheme would be a lighter escort (armed with torpedoes) and a BC squadron strong enough to defeat the Germans cruising in some central location, hoping to get lucky, where the convoy attacked is near enough it can come up in support?


Why wouldn't the convoy be protected by pre Dreadnoughts leaving the BC to hunt down the HSF's BC
 
Pre-dreadnoughts would be mechanically unreliable for escort duty, and they were exceptionally vulnerable to torpedo attack, so I'm guessing the wear of constant duty would be brutal on availability rates, but theoretically if the British were willing to strip the Channel of its defences then they could form some pre-dreadnought squadrons capable of escorting convoys in the Approaches, and maybe one periodically off New York. The number of pre-dreadnoughts per convoy would be crucial, since against 1 BC raider as few as 2 pre-dreadnoughts might do, but against 4 BC raiders two pre-dreadnoughts would be sunk and the convoy still rolled up.
 
Pre-dreadnoughts would be mechanically unreliable for escort duty, and they were exceptionally vulnerable to torpedo attack, so I'm guessing the wear of constant duty would be brutal on availability rates, but theoretically if the British were willing to strip the Channel of its defences then they could form some pre-dreadnought squadrons capable of escorting convoys in the Approaches, and maybe one periodically off New York. The number of pre-dreadnoughts per convoy would be crucial, since against 1 BC raider as few as 2 pre-dreadnoughts might do, but against 4 BC raiders two pre-dreadnoughts would be sunk and the convoy still rolled up.

1 predreadnought per BC raider would probably be enough to deter the BC raider as the escort does not need to get a hard kill, it just needs to do three things.

a) Get off an accurate sighting report
b) Keep the raider occupied for most of the convoy to disperse ( a few ships will be run down but that is okay)
c) Credibly threaten to cause enough damage to the raider so as to allow the fast response forces to run the raider down

Sure this is rough on the escort, it is rough on the convoy but it works. The RN had 37+ predreadnoughts (Majestic to King Edward VII classes) where they would be very happy to trade 1:1 for modern German battlecruisers as the raiders get chased down by modern cruisers/battlecruisers once the damaged raider has a solid position fix.

And if the raiders are concentrating 4 or 6 BCs that is still a win as the problem is detecting the convoy. Keeping 4 raiders fairly tight covering a 50 mile search line means a lot of convoys get through cleanly without ever being detected. Unless those raiders are operating near convergence points (say the Bristol Channel, entrance to the northern part of the Irish Sea, Dover/Calais, Thames Estuary, approaches to St. Johns or approaches to New York Harbor etc, there is not a lot of traffic to find if most of the blue water merchies are being convoyed in fairly large convoys. Sure, this imposes a significant convoy cargo tonnage tax due to inefficient delivery streams to the ports but it is rough on the raiders.

Assuming the Germans can keep one in three battlecruisers in Great Waters due to need for training/rest/overhauls, they simply don't have enough detection platforms to both mob a modest escort of obsolete pre-dreadnoughts AND find a lot of convoys. The places where they can find lots of convoys are well watched waters near to British fleet bases that can dispatch heavy covering and hunting squadrons.
 
I doubt pre-dreadnoughts would have a significant impact on a war at sea in the Atlantic, for reasons of many tasks, obsolescence, lack of combat power, and mechanical unreliability due to age. That being said, I think you're probably right that whenever a dreadnought raider was confronted 1:1 or 1:2 with defending pre-dreadnoughts this might be a deterrent.

And if the raiders are concentrating 4 or 6 BCs that is still a win as the problem is detecting the convoy.

The first time 4 BC's sank 2 pre-dreadnoughts and took out a convoy would be the last time pre-dreadnoughts were employed in penny packets - at that point the RN may start looking at larger and larger convoys with fullblown dreadnought escort.
 
I doubt pre-dreadnoughts would have a significant impact on a war at sea in the Atlantic, for reasons of many tasks, obsolescence, lack of combat power, and mechanical unreliability due to age. That being said, I think you're probably right that whenever a dreadnought raider was confronted 1:1 or 1:2 with defending pre-dreadnoughts this might be a deterrent.




The first time 4 BC's sank 2 pre-dreadnoughts and took out a convoy would be the last time pre-dreadnoughts were employed in penny packets - at that point the RN may start looking at larger and larger convoys with fullblown dreadnought escort.

But those 4 battlecruisers now have given the RN a firm position fix, one or two have some damage. The most likely spots for the interception to be made are in confined waters near to RN bases. The RN will trade 2 predreadnoughts and 10 mercies to get 3 or 4 battlecruisers S those BCs either have to run the Channel, Gibraltar/Adriatic or the GIUK gap to get home. The biggest problem the RN has is finding the raider to mob it
 
But those 4 battlecruisers now have given the RN a firm position fix, one or two have some damage. The most likely spots for the interception to be made are in confined waters near to RN bases. The RN will trade 2 predreadnoughts and 10 mercies to get 3 or 4 battlecruisers S those BCs either have to run the Channel, Gibraltar/Adriatic or the GIUK gap to get home. The biggest problem the RN has is finding the raider to mob it

Sometimes contenders seem to forget a major issue: the raider cannot accept any damage, while the defender can. While Dreadnought type battleships and dito cruisers are seriously more capable ships compared to the expensive and limmited pre-Dreadnought types, they cannot risk damage to their own while at sea hunting commerce, so will retire when facing any form of a sort of strong deterent, as they have no base to back on, unless you controll much of the seas with bases located there as well. The point is: Battlecruisers are not teh best form of commerceraiders, beeing far too rare in the navy and far too expensive to operate outside the normal fleet jobs. Smaller cruisers are more expendable and can be better suited to this form of commerceraiding, though they will prey on single ships, not convoys with escorts.
 
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