WI: Kaiser Wilhelm II invades the United States

I suspect international courts (if such existed with any real potency back then) would frown on the legality of the USA declaring war upon a nation state aquiring the colonial possession of another nation in a reasonably legal purchase. On the otherhand, if Germany takes it from Spain by force then I doubt people would be paticually shocked if the USA intervenes.

Would you have considered it legal for Britain or Japan to declare war upon the USA for taking the Philippines? Both nations could probably have claimed it was in their sphere and they were suffering encroachment. Britain could certainly have argued Alaska was in their sphere, would you consider a declaration of war over it legal?
 
Othniel said:
Yes. It is a legal cause. Its called encroachment.

The US would also probably trump up the cause of Cuban independence, (which of course means a puppet government ruled by US corporate interests) as undoubtably Cuba was straining underneath the cruel Spanish yoke and Spain only sold its colonies as means of tricking another power into to dealing with their unhappy independence seeking populus.
 
Earling said:
I suspect international courts (if such existed with any real potency back then) would frown on the legality of the USA declaring war upon a nation state aquiring the colonial possession of another nation in a reasonably legal purchase. On the otherhand, if Germany takes it from Spain by force then I doubt people would be paticually shocked if the USA intervenes.

Would you have considered it legal for Britain or Japan to declare war upon the USA for taking the Philippines? Both nations could probably have claimed it was in their sphere and they were suffering encroachment. Britain could certainly have argued Alaska was in their sphere, would you consider a declaration of war over it legal?
These are all very different issues. Remember, the people of these Spanish colonies are not being consulted for such a sale, or sales.
 

CalBear

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There is, at this time, no such thing as needing a "legal" cause to go to war. Even today, the legal basis is fairly easy to achieve.

Any attempt by Germany to act against the Western Hemisphere, especially North America, would be doomed from the onset. Even without the Royal Navy (which would, without question, be deployed in opposition, to protect Canada & the British possessions in the Carribean), logistics would be a killer.

Coal is life to warships at this time, and German coaling opprotunities are going to be few & far between. Where, once they leave the North Sea, will they get coal? Defeat the German Fleet at sea? Why? Intercept the coal carriers, capture or sink them, & drag the German fleet into Norfolk on a tow cable when it loses steam.

INVADE a country of 100 MILLION people with 100,000 troops? In the 1890's? Yea' that'll work! Bring a lot of body bags (opps, shelter halves).

Heaviest Field gun is a 75 mm, machine guns are new, more or less untried in heavy combat, and too heavy to move easily. No armor. No air power. No freaking CARS! Poor bastards will be lucky if the folks in Brooklyn don't kill them all with rocks.

I will point out that, despite having the most powerful, well equipped, modern army on Earth, the U.S. is having trouble with Iraq. Now, halve the available troops, take away tanks, helicopters, air support, assault weapons, radios, & decent medical support. Mix well. Drop into an urban enviroment where many of the citizens will be as well armed as the invading force, have a powerful hate for European princes ordering them about, and are not nearly so genteel as the residents of today's New York. One piece of good news, MOST of the citizenry will not cut off the ears & noses of the wounded.

This might be great way to avoid WW I. The Kaiser probably will be a lot less interested in fighting a major war in Europe once he gets back the pitiful dregs of the shiny force he sent out into the wilds.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
CalBear said:
INVADE a country of 100 MILLION people with 100,000 troops? In the 1890's? Yea' that'll work! Bring a lot of body bags (opps, shelter halves).

I agree completely. I always distrust AH scenarios that suppose the world works as if it's just a big game of Risk.
 
If such an attempt were undertaken, there'd probably be a backlash against the large German american population
 
Hmm, but that's a point - WI the German-Americans don't want to fight against their brothers, or even collaborate?
 
Max Sinister said:
Hmm, but that's a point - WI the German-Americans don't want to fight against their brothers, or even collaborate?

Thats what i'm thinking- many will be tarred with the same brush even if they are loyal to america, they might be split- its possible that many of the recently arrived immigrants might side with the invaders.

how close were german americans at that time to the government in the8it homeland, i know German was one of the biggest minority cultures in the US at that time.

BTW i seem remember another AH site i looked at ages ago, before i became an AH.comer seemed to feature a book written on this very subject, it was actually written in 1916 as a possible near future event, cant remeber what it was called though or the site i saw it on.
 

Thande

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birdie said:
Thats what i'm thinking- many will be tarred with the same brush even if they are loyal to america, they might be split- its possible that many of the recently arrived immigrants might side with the invaders.

how close were german americans at that time to the government in the8it homeland, i know German was one of the biggest minority cultures in the US at that time.

BTW i seem remember another AH site i looked at ages ago, before i became an AH.comer seemed to feature a book written on this very subject, it was actually written in 1916 as a possible near future event, cant remeber what it was called though or the site i saw it on.
Robert Conroy's 1901 (the name of the book), but that was written quite recently. A little bit biased towards America IMO, but not excessively so on a scale of one to Harry Harrison. ;)
 

MrP

Banned
CalBear said:
INVADE a country of 100 MILLION people with 100,000 troops? In the 1890's? Yea' that'll work! Bring a lot of body bags (opps, shelter halves).

I agree with everything else you said, but feel compelled to point out that it the war plans aren't plans for an invasion and occupation of the USA. Unless my memory's playing me tricks they have two goals:

1) Demonstrate to everyone that Germany kicks ass.
2) Destroy the shipyards on the East Coast, thus preventing subsequent immediate USN retaliation.

Still, the German Navy managed to distract the Kaiser, thank heavens. He was quite a silly chappy at times. I sure as hell wouldn't wish to wage war on 1897 America with 1897 Germany. Even if I were willing to strip the regular army, remove the whole navy from the coast, and amass the necessary logistical train, the world would freak. The RN and French would destroy my fleet either initially, or after I've started to burn down every shipyard in America. None of the people sent over to America would return, because everyone'd be killing them. As I say, silly chappy, that Kaiser Bill. :rolleyes:
 
Thande said:
Robert Conroy's 1901 (the name of the book), but that was written quite recently. A little bit biased towards America IMO, but not excessively so on a scale of one to Harry Harrison. ;)

thanks for the info....however the book i'm thinking of, was actually written in 1916, based on a premise of a draw in the GW with no US involvement and the kaiser looking to flex Germany's muscles, it is something to do with the monroe doctrine.

I just tried to find the website but couldnt, seems to have gone:confused:
 
MrP said:
I agree with everything else you said, but feel compelled to point out that it the war plans aren't plans for an invasion and occupation of the USA. Unless my memory's playing me tricks they have two goals:

1) Demonstrate to everyone that Germany kicks ass.
2) Destroy the shipyards on the East Coast, thus preventing subsequent immediate USN retaliation.
Some of this plan was discussed in a book by Paul Kennedy entitled War Plans of the Great Powers. If I remember correctly, the basic plan was to occupy New York, smash up some shipyards, and wait for the Americans to give in. There were, of course, a bunch of variations, including attacks on Florida, an invasion of Puerto Rico, and so on. After the victory bash, of course, the Germans could happily colonize Latin America with no outside interference. In short, the same type of optimistic planning that produced the smashing victory of 1914 is still in full bloom.

The books out of print, but you can still get it at a university library or at Amazon. Just keep a German dictionary handy; he throws in a lot of German words and doesn't bother with translation.
 
birdie said:
Thats what i'm thinking- many will be tarred with the same brush even if they are loyal to america, they might be split- its possible that many of the recently arrived immigrants might side with the invaders.

how close were german americans at that time to the government in the8it homeland, i know German was one of the biggest minority cultures in the US at that time.

BTW i seem remember another AH site i looked at ages ago, before i became an AH.comer seemed to feature a book written on this very subject, it was actually written in 1916 as a possible near future event, cant remeber what it was called though or the site i saw it on.
German Americans are a bit hard to point out, unless they have an accent, of a name seeming foreign to most of their fellow Americans. Just have the Joachim Schwartzman become Jack Blackman, and the problem, while not well addressed, is reduced in severity.
 
CalBear said:
Any attempt by Germany to act against the Western Hemisphere, especially North America, would be doomed from the onset. Even without the Royal Navy (which would, without question, be deployed in opposition, to protect Canada & the British possessions in the Carribean), logistics would be a killer.

Yes it would, but don't assume it would also be employed to defend the US.

If we're talking about a war breaking out in the late 1890s then Britain has no great love for the US. The Prime Minister - Lord Sailsbury is busy lamenting the fact that the British didn't intervene to break up the US during the civil war and RN navy planners are beginning to view the US as a threat to British power in the Americas following the Venezuela dispute.

At the same time Germany is seen as a big threat in Europe.

I suspect than in the event of an Amero-German war, Britain would have stood on the sidelines laughing, as its two greatest rivals knocked the crap out of each other. As neither side can deliver a crushing victory against the other, the British don't have to worry too much about an over-mighty Germany or US emerging at the end of the war and can simply sit back and sell arms, supplies and loans to both sides.

With regards to the British using the RN to enforce the Monroe Doctrine in South America or the Caribbean, how likely is that? By the late C19th it was clear that none of the Great Powers was willing to undertake a major war in order to defend small non-European states from rival empires. Palmerston even send that it Germany was to become an empire then "God speed her" (1882).

CalBear said:
I will point out that, despite having the most powerful, well equipped, modern army on Earth, the U.S. is having trouble with Iraq. Now, halve the available troops, take away tanks, helicopters, air support, assault weapons, radios, & decent medical support. Mix well. Drop into an urban enviroment where many of the citizens will be as well armed as the invading force, have a powerful hate for European princes ordering them about, and are not nearly so genteel as the residents of today's New York. One piece of good news, MOST of the citizenry will not cut off the ears & noses of the wounded.

That assumes that the population would 1. try to resist and 2. would have the determination to continue to resist even when the Germans start getting VERY nasty.

With regards to whether or not the Americans would have resisted, that's something on which we can only speculate. The only example we have of a foreign power invading the mainland US in OTL is the 1812 War, in which American resistance was notable by its absence.

Secondly, taking Germany's occupation of Belgium as an example, will the Americans living under German occupation be so keen to resist once the Germans start shooting and hanging people as reprisal for acts of resistence?

Once the message gets through that taking pot-shots at German soldiers gets you a fast track ticket to the firing squad, maybe resistence dies down?

Just a thought
 
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