WI: Jutland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Germanic

Ouch, yes, one of those threads based off something someone randomly foudn in wikipedia. But bare with me.
But notice the map.
Mainland Denmark is dominated by people more similar to the Frisians and English than to modern Scandinavians.
So, what if this Jutland (for want of a better name, it doesn't necessarily have to be the Jutes who win out) to come to pass.
'Denmark' sticks to Sjaeland and Skane leaving the west different.
How to get this of course is a nigh on impossible question to answer, its the dark ages afterall, we know very little. I suppose you can do something about Charlemagne not smashing the Saxons or whatever.

Anyway; my main thinking behind this is one of giving the English brothers.
IOTL with the Frisians being nothing the English are quite isolated and cut off. A srange bastard language. Sure we have some stuff in common with Dutch and stole a lot of our vocabulary from French but...we don't have true similar countries in the way the Euros do.
Not only do the Scandinavians have each other but they're also closer to the Germans than we are to anything of note.

So...this is quite a vague and open question here. more philisophical than strictly historical- how would the existence of this Jutland change England? (lets assume it does evolve as per usual).
Of course there's the standard no viking blah blah but lets substitute some Norwegians in there if need be.

What I mean is- would this see England try and tie itself more to the continent? Would it seek to dominate this nation especially?
Of course in earlier medieval times what language you spoke didn't matter too much but...assuming we get through to the modern era with everything still intact, how would the English outlook differ with this clear tie to the continent?

Sorry if this is all a bithard to understand, I'm just verbalising (err...writing) thoughts here....
 
The easy way is of course the Charlemagne card! or some successor. It could have been during the royal family internal struggles post murder of Godfrey 810. At a time the pretender and German troops actually did occupy Jutland, but really it was too late. In this context.

You would have to go back in time to the alleged influx of Danes from Sweden to Denmark (hilarious isn't it :D) sometime in 2-300AD. Have something bar their entry into Jutland, perhaps no migration from Jutland to Angelland (England) but what then??
No Jutes in Isle of Wight and no Angles in England! That would make for a definitely Saxon England. But as far as I've read a lot of Frisians also too part in the Anglo-Saxon conquest...!
It may make for a different Saxon England, perhaps lesser than OTL with a larger surviving British England - some kind of Saxons balanced off with the British! That could make for less English interest in the Continent due to having to keep resources at home fighting the natives. ;)

But then if the Danes had remained in Sweden naming it Denmark :eek: the Herules might not leave Denmark or whatever they were calling their lands and stay put. But who were these Herules? Some of them seems to have been living in Sweden/Denmark or perhaps rather Scania (think it was Jordanes mentioning it) after the Danish conquest as some envoys from the Herules in exile from the Balkans travelled back to the old land to ask for a new King be given them. (its all rather obscure)
At least the Herules in exile were seagoing in the Black Sea so we might still get to see some kind of Vikings after all.

Take your pick. :D:D:D

Then this different England - probably going to be Saxon/Frisian of sorts. Perhaps a lesser England and larger Britain in the sense of England=land conquered by Saxons/Frisians, Britain=lands ruled by British.
Could make for some development limited to the isles due to the ongoing fighting for local surpremacy. But beyond this I don't know.

If you rule out the Danes of Jutland and Herules too you may get rid of Vikings in the West but could have a lot in the Baltic instead. Some different history in those lands.
With a lesser Denmark (or whatever) you could have a much stronger Norway in relation to the other petty kingdoms holding sway.

The English/Britons may have some tough time in the North Sea as you relate the Jutes to Frisians thus could have a much larger loosely connected Frisian area that would dominate navigation in the area - could even supplant the Vikings. (damm do getting to pop up those Vikings)

This could make life difficult for the English with struggle against the British in the island and against the Frisians raiding the shores. Might lead to the English in the end take an interest in the Frisians to just get rid of the nuisance.

But its difficult to draw up the scenario and even more difficult to predict any outcome - those damm butterflies... :D
 
The easy way is of course the Charlemagne card! or some successor. It could have been during the royal family internal struggles post murder of Godfrey 810. At a time the pretender and German troops actually did occupy Jutland, but really it was too late. In this context.

You would have to go back in time to the alleged influx of Danes from Sweden to Denmark (hilarious isn't it :D) sometime in 2-300AD. Have something bar their entry into Jutland, perhaps no migration from Jutland to Angelland (England) but what then??
No Jutes in Isle of Wight and no Angles in England! That would make for a definitely Saxon England. But as far as I've read a lot of Frisians also too part in the Anglo-Saxon conquest...!
It may make for a different Saxon England, perhaps lesser than OTL with a larger surviving British England - some kind of Saxons balanced off with the British! That could make for less English interest in the Continent due to having to keep resources at home fighting the natives. ;)

But then if the Danes had remained in Sweden naming it Denmark :eek: the Herules might not leave Denmark or whatever they were calling their lands and stay put. But who were these Herules? Some of them seems to have been living in Sweden/Denmark or perhaps rather Scania (think it was Jordanes mentioning it) after the Danish conquest as some envoys from the Herules in exile from the Balkans travelled back to the old land to ask for a new King be given them. (its all rather obscure)
At least the Herules in exile were seagoing in the Black Sea so we might still get to see some kind of Vikings after all.

Take your pick. :D:D:D

Then this different England - probably going to be Saxon/Frisian of sorts. Perhaps a lesser England and larger Britain in the sense of England=land conquered by Saxons/Frisians, Britain=lands ruled by British.
Could make for some development limited to the isles due to the ongoing fighting for local surpremacy. But beyond this I don't know.

If you rule out the Danes of Jutland and Herules too you may get rid of Vikings in the West but could have a lot in the Baltic instead. Some different history in those lands.
With a lesser Denmark (or whatever) you could have a much stronger Norway in relation to the other petty kingdoms holding sway.

The English/Britons may have some tough time in the North Sea as you relate the Jutes to Frisians thus could have a much larger loosely connected Frisian area that would dominate navigation in the area - could even supplant the Vikings. (damm do getting to pop up those Vikings)

This could make life difficult for the English with struggle against the British in the island and against the Frisians raiding the shores. Might lead to the English in the end take an interest in the Frisians to just get rid of the nuisance.

But its difficult to draw up the scenario and even more difficult to predict any outcome - those damm butterflies... :D

Well if the Angles and Jutes don't go then you get more room for more Saxons to go...hhahahha you get what... Saxony in England and Angland (or Anglan, Anglmark,.... Anglia thats it...) in Saxony (well most of it anyways) with Jutland as their Scotland equivalent now isn't that just a laugh and a giggle or two....

mind you when the Danes come..couldn't they still form some kind of tripartite union with these stronger Jute and Angle kingdoms ( cal it the Union of Fyn) that would dominate North Germany and the Baltic.

just another thought...

if the Danes are blocked from Jutland because of a stronger jute and Angle presence would they not simply expand along the south shore of the Baltic instead into the slavic lands of Pommerania and Mecklinburg..that went to German Nobles and settlers OTL. In short..Danes take the place of the Germans marching east into the slavic lands beyond the Oder at least on the Baltic coast.
 
Last edited:
if the Danes are blocked from Jutland because of a stronger jute and Angle presence would they not simply expand along the south shore of the Baltic instead into the slavic lands of Pommerania and Mecklinburg..that went to German Nobles and settlers OTL. In short..Danes take the place of the Germans marching east into the slavic lands beyond the Oder at least on the Baltic coast.

Most probably. :D
 
Top