WI: Juche Kurdistan

azadi

Banned
I don't think that a SR Russia will support Wilsonian Armenia, as SR Russia will probably support the right to national self-determination and Ottoman Armenia was populated by Turkish or Kurdish majorities except for the area around Lake Van. And the Armenian Genocide has almost removed all Armenians from Ottoman Armenia. But I think that a SR Russia will support Armenia against Turkish aggression and will support Armenia getting the First Republic of Armenia borders (present day Armenia and Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh, Nakhchivan, Kars Province and Igdir Province).

But except for that, a nationalist socialist regime in Kurdistan is very likely in this scenario.

Azadi
 
The Rudaw article is post-Kurdish independence referendum. And you haven't commented on the content of the articles. Why? Are they not interesting?
The Rudaw article doesn't say anything about Turkey supporting South Kurdistan Independence

But Communist Kurdistan will be pro-Zionist and will not be a natural ally of non-Communist and anti-Zionist Ba'athism. And if a Hashemite kingdom is established in Kurdistan and is overthrown by a communist revolution, Communist Kurdistan will be very anti-Arab.
A Hashemites won't be Kings also, Given the mutual hostility to Iran. Kurdistan won't be Anti-Arab.
 

azadi

Banned
The Rudaw article doesn't say anything about Turkey supporting South Kurdistan Independence
That is true, but it describes a Kurdish strategy for making Turkey change its view of South Kurdistan independence.

A Hashemites won't be Kings also, Given the mutual hostility to Iran. Kurdistan won't be Anti-Arab.
Other threads on AH.com about Great Britain establishing an independent Kurdish state after WWI consider it likely that Great Britain would have installed a Hashemite prince as King of Kurdistan. If this happens, it may lead to anti-Arab sentiment in Kurdistan analogous to the anti-Manchu sentiment in China during the last years of the Qing Dynasty, which was an important part of the Xinhai Revolution (the revolution that established the Republic of China).

Azadi
 
Other threads on AH.com about Great Britain establishing an independent Kurdish state after WWI consider it likely that Great Britain would have installed a Hashemite prince as King of Kurdistan. If this happen, it may lead to anti-Arab sentiment in Kurdistan analogous to the anti-Manchu sentiment in China during the last years of the Qing Dynasty, which was an important part of the Xinhai Revolution (the revolution that established the Republic of China).
Depends on if the government will be Arab dominated or not. But they have reasons to not be Anti-Arab as they would need Iraq help against Iran
 

azadi

Banned
Depends on if the government will be Arab dominated or not. But they have reasons to not be Anti-Arab as they would need Iraq help against Iran

They will prefer Russia and Turkey in that case. Iraq is weak, anti-Communist and anti-Zionist. And even if a Hashemite regime in Kurdistan is not Arab-dominated, the new Communist regime in Kurdistan will focus on the Arabness of the Hashemites in their propaganda in order to increase support for the revolution. However if the Islamic Revolution in Iran still happens and that Iraq still invades Iran after the Islamic Revolution in Iran, Communist Kurdistan will enter the war against Iran on the side of Iraq. But Kurdistan and Iraq will be co-belligerents rather than allies.

Azadi
 
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BigBlueBox

Banned
I don't think that a SR Russia will support Wilsonian Armenia, as SR Russia will probably support the right to national self-determination and Ottoman Armenia was populated by Turkish or Kurdish majorities except for the area around Lake Van. And the Armenian Genocide has almost removed all Armenians from Ottoman Armenia. But I think that a SR Russia will support Armenia against Turkish aggression and will support Armenia getting the First Republic of Armenia borders (present day Armenia and Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh, Nakhchivan, Kars Province and Igdir Province)..

Azadi
I think SR Russia would want to ensure that Turkey is a weak, ruined rump state that would never dare to even consider closing the straits. And thanks to the Armenian genocide, the entire world will turn a blind eye when all the Turks get ethnically cleansed out of Greater Armenia.
 

azadi

Banned
No, SR Russia will support Atatürk against the Western imperialists and their Greek allies. SR Russia will force Atatürk to accept an independent Armenia with the First Republic of Armenia borders and an independent Kurdistan encompassing all of Ottoman Kurdistan (perhaps except for the Kurdish regions in Syria) in exchange for Russian support for Turkey preserving its western and central Anatolian core. Armenia and Kurdistan will ally with Atatürk against the Western imperialists and the Greeks and the alliance of Turkey, Kurdistan and Armenia will receive a massive amount of Russian weapons free of charge. Turkey, Kurdistan and Armenia will liberate Istanbul and Izmir from the Greeks, Konya from the Italians and Sivas and Iskenderun (Alexandretta) from the French.

Azadi
 

azadi

Banned
Inspired by a post in the Sjølberging (Juche) Norway thread, who discussed Sjølberging Norway's impact on Westerners' perception of the Vikings, I consider the impact of a Juche Kurdistan promoting Zoroastrianism and ancient Iranic civilization on Westerners' view on the ancient Persian/Iranic civilization very interesting. Westerners have traditionally considered the Persian Wars a very pivotal event in the formation of the Western civilization, and the Persians have traditionally been despised by Philhellenic Westerners. Juche Kurdistan will identify itself with the Medians rather than the Persians, but since the Median Empire was a forerunner of the Old Persian Empire, Juche Kurdistan will still impact Westerner's view on the Persian civilization. Most Westerners will be more strongly Philhellenic and anti-Persian in their views of the ancient world, but both Stalinists and right-wing extremists in Western countries may begin to prefer the Persian civilization over the ancient Greek civilization. They will especially prefer the Persian civilization over Athens. They may consider the Persian support to the Spartans in the Peloponnesian Wars as a model for the relations between those groups and Juche Kurdistan. I imagine Varg Vikernes rooting for the Persians when reading about the Battle of Salamis in a world where Juche Kurdistan is existing.

Azadi
 
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I dislike TLs on AH.com about the Megali Idea being realized. I suspect that most TLs about the Megali Idea being realized is motivated by Western Turkophobia.

Azadi
No Turkophobia there at all, just bad luck. And the trajectory was already set by the Entente powers at the time, so I'm not making anything up. The TL is at first exploring a world where the Socialist-Revolutionaries won the Russian Civil War, and beyond, I'm not bending the TL in a direction because I want one state or another screwed or shining, I just see where things can go in logical consequences of the pod. And so it appeared that the fortunes of Turkey are much less favorable than they were IOTL.

Soviets are gone in 1919, which doesn't
allow the Turks to launch an invasion (because they have no assurance at all Russia won't step in support of Armenia) , leaving Armenia time to prepare its own with support of the British (otl notoriously pro Armenians) and the French are able to spare troops for Syria, which keep pressure on the southern flank. The lack of Soviet help, the continued hostilities with Armenia and increased supply of surplus allowed to both Greeks and Armenians by the absence of Russian civil war into 1919 and 1920 tip the already fragile otl balance.
All in all, if there is among those points, one to keep, it's that of continued Armenian resistance which keep vital forces from bolstering the defense against the Greek offensive.
As for Greece, it will get its own version of the Spanish Civil War as a result of this victory, which can be seen under this light as a poisoned gift from fate.
And the straits stay "neutral" as a continued Sultanate headed by Abdulmejid II under international protection and that would quite a thriving cultural place with liberal atmosphere.
 

azadi

Banned
But I imagine SR Russia being just as pro-Atatürk as Soviet Russia. And with no October Revolution, Armenia will become an autonomous region of Russia. Armenia seceded from Russia after the October Revolution. The Dashnaktsutyun will rule the Russian autonomous region of Armenia in a SR Russia and the Dashnaks will be recognized by the SRs as the Armenian branch of the SRs.

Are the Italian zone of influence in southwestern Turkey and the French zone of influence in southeastern Turkey established in your TL?

Azadi
 
So, this is absolutely not about the Megali Idea. That's just OTL trends. And for what it's worth, Turkey's resistance lead to more lenient terms than the original Sèvres treaty, with influence and meddling in internal affairs being thrown out, Kurdish lands being kept (for now), the straits remain Turkish (albeit conveniently as a rump Ottoman Sultanate), keeping it strictly a matter territorial losses without loss of sovereignty in foreign or domestic matters.
 

azadi

Banned
My dislike for TL's about the Megali Idea being realized is not directed at you, but rather at a general trend on AH.com. There have been threads on AH.com discussing the existence of Turkophobia on AH.com.

Azadi
 
October revolution still happens in my TL, the pod is at the battle of Kazan in late August/early September 1918.

As a matter of foreign policy, Russia has just gone gone through two revolutions and a Civil War. The SRs are trying to salvage whatever credit Russia has on the diplomatic scene so it aligns generally with the other Entente powers or just look the other way, for now.

In Turkey, they are content with the neutral status of the straits that open a free and secure trade route, and that's all, focused as they are on consolidation and reconstruction, just keeping out of the fray. Russia doesn't deem the Nationalists worth spending whatever few diplomatic capital they still have, while the question of borders and relations with newly independent neighbors on its western frontier, along the subject of Japanese occupation of Vladivostok, are on top of the day's priorities.

A significant event I think is unavoidable, despite official anti imperialist discourse, is the invasion of Azerbaijan, primarily motivated by the need to control Baku oil fields (strategically, Russia can't afford to let them go) , so they will find a justification or another just as the Soviets did, but that move would make Turkish Nationalists very nervous about attacking Armenia there.

Turkey won't lose more than the Smyrna enclave originally granted to Greece in the treaty of Sèvres, plus eventual minor corrections for strategic security purposes. Turkey resistance did already compell IOTL a revision of Sèvres treaty with an attempt to give more lenient terms, though far from the complete repeal of Lausanne. So there would be pressure on Greece not to push too far, keeping in mind that given the geopolitical stakes, any revised peace treaty will have to include all the major powers, taking it out from sole Greek hands.
 

azadi

Banned
I just imagine any socialist regime in Russia as being opposed to Western imperialism.

Azadi
 

azadi

Banned
There has been many threads on AH.com discussing the existence of Turkophobia on AH.com.

Azadi
 
I just imagine any socialist regime in Russia as being opposed to Western imperialism.

Azadi
It matters them as much as it did for the Soviets, when it was convenient. As they recover strength through the 1920s, they will be able to play the anti imperialist card, which is to be seen in China against Japanese ambitions, but for the time being, it the early 1920s, they can't but keep it quiet, make stands of principle without really acting on them.
 

azadi

Banned
So do you agree, that if the October Revolution doesn't happen, if the Constituent Assembly of Russia is not dissolved, the Constituent Assembly of Russia elects Viktor Chernov President of Russia and if the Russian Civil War is avoided (maybe by restoring the Romanov Tsardom in a ceremonial form), SR Russia will support Atatürk?

Azadi
 
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