WI: Juche Kurdistan

azadi

Banned
I have read many threads on AH.com about other countries developing in a similar way to North Korea. But nobody have mentioned Kurdistan in any of these threads. Why?


Kurdistan has in my opinion the building blocks for developing its own version of Juche: A strong tradition combining socialism and nationalism and a sense of being encircled by enemies ("We Kurds have no friends but the mountains"). There is also a strong identification with pre-Islamic Iranic civilization in Kurdistan and there has recently been a significant revival of Zoroastrianism in South (Iraqi) Kurdistan.


If Kurdistan or at least a part of Kurdistan achieves independence under a communist or socialist regime, it may develop into a Kurdish version of Juche. The Kurdish version of Juche will establish a socialist planned economy on the Soviet model, but perhaps without collectivization of agriculture.


It will identify itself with the Median Empire (the Medes were a Kurdish tribe). It will repress Islam or will at least remove Islam from the public space (e.g. banning hijab, banning the call to prayer from minarets, banning female genital mutilation and banning segregation of genders in public facilities). It will promote Zoroastrianism as an authentic Kurdish religion. It will also tolerate Yazidism, Yarism (Ahl e-Haqq) and Alevi Islam as native Kurdish religions. It will be tolerant of Jews and Judaism, because tolerance towards Jews and Judaism is a Kurdish tradition. It will ban Christian missionaries from Western countries from entering Kurdistan, but will not persecute Christian Kurds.


It will hate Arabs, especially Iraqis and Syrians. It will also be opposed to Turkey. It will consider Iran as a brother nation lead astray by Islamists. It will support Israel strongly and will recognize Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel. It will be allied with Russia and will recognize Crimea as Russian territory. Russia will be to Juche Kurdistan what China is to North Korea. It will also have friendly relations with Belarus and with Kazakhstan (a secular dictatorship with Communist roots belonging partly to the Iranic cultural sphere). It will also have friendly relations with Venezuela under Hugo Chavez and Nicolas Maduro, with Communist Cuba, with Nicaragua under Daniel Ortega and with Bolivia under Evo Morales.

The Kurdish Juche regime will expel all Arabs and Turks from Kurdistan. Armenians may be allowed to remain in Kurdistan. Kurdish Jews will be allowed to remain in Kurdistan and Kurdish Jews who have emigrated to Israel will be allowed to return to Kurdistan. Assyrians will be expelled from Kurdistan as they will be considered Christian Iraqis.

Kurdistan's mountainous geography will enable isolation of Kurdistan from the outside world. If Kurdistan controls the Kirkuk oil fields, Kurdish Juche will be strengthened significantly. Juche Kurdistan may develop nuclear weapons with the help of Russia.

There will be significant differences between Kurdish Juche and North Korean Juche. Kurdistan's monotheist heritage will prevent claiming that the Serok (leader, the Kurdish equivalent of Duce) is divine. It may be less totalitarian, while still being severely authoritarian with mass repression of counterrevolutionaries and with especially severe repression against Islamists. There will be prison camps in the Kurdish mountains and executions of Islamists and other counterrevolutionaries will often happen.

Azadi
 
It would be much harder to pull off and remain isolated than Korea, for the same reasons Kurdistan is not independent and remains divided; it is at the crossroads of important oil fields, pipelines, trade routes, etc. There would be too much pressure for it to open up both externally and internally.
Only a very small Kurdistan (smaller than present day Iraqi Kurdistan) pull this off.
 
They damage their own economy, and when everyone and their grandma knows that the Kurds are starving and can barely carry their AK-47s, the Turks, Arabs and Persians decide "Why don't we invade and take these lands back?"
 

azadi

Banned
Why does everybody belittle Kurdistan? I have mentioned that Juche Kurdistan is allied with Russia. And since WW2, the international community has been opposed to annexing other countries, especially without support from the population of the annexed area. In addition, Juche Kurdistan will not be strongly anti-American or anti-Western, so there will not be western support for annexation of Kurdistan by surrounding countries. It is also important to consider, that if Kurdistan has been independent for a long time, the countries formerly ruling over Kurdistan may eventually accept Kurdish independence, because they will get used to not rule over Kurdistan. I have also mentioned that a Kurdish Juche state may only comprise parts of Kurdistan. If South (Iraqi) Kurdistan was an independent state ruled by a Juche regime, it may be supported by Turkey, if PKK still arises and Juche South Kurdistan fights PKK together with Turkey. Juche South Kurdistan will consider present-day PKK revisionist traitors because of PKK's opposition to Kurdish independence and because PKK is influenced by the spirit of 1968 and by Euro-Socialism.

But even considering the arguments against Juche Kurdistan presented above valid, why is Juche Kurdistan more implausible than e.g. Juche Norway, which is currently discussed on AH.com.? Norway has a strong tradition of democracy dating back to long before the proposed POD for the establishment of Juche Norway (A Soviet occupation of Norway in the end of WW2) and Norway has far better relations with their neighbour countries than Kurdistan has. There has been some resentment against Sweden in Norway because Norway established independence by seceding from a union with Sweden, and there was also a dispute between Norway and Denmark over East Greenland in the 1930's, but Norwegians still feels Scandinavian kinship towards Danes and Swedes, especially towards Danes. Norway is also traditionally pro-British. Norway doesn't have a hatred of their neighbour countries comparable to the hatred between Kurds and Arabs and to the hatred between Koreans and Japanese.

Azadi
 
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that if Kurdistan has been independent for a long time, the countries formerly ruling over Kurdistan may eventually accept Kurdish independence,
How is it going to gain independence or keep it for a long time ?

And since WW2, the international community has been opposed to annexing other countries, especially without support from the population of the annexed area.
That hasn't stopped annexations such as India and Pakistan annexing the princely states, China and Tibet, India and Sikkim, North Vietnam taking South Vietnam.

If South (Iraqi) Kurdistan was an independent state ruled by a Juche regime, it may be supported by Turkey,
Independent Kurdish anywhere is a threat to the territorial integrity of any of the four countries that hold Kurdish land.
 
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azadi

Banned
That hasn't stopped annexations such as India and Pakistan annexing the princely states, China and Tibet, India and Sikkim, North Vietnam taking South Vietnam.

The princely states in India were under the suzerainty of the Emperor of India (the King of Great Britain) and this suzerainty transferred to India and Pakistan. Sikkim was overwhelmed by Nepalese migrants, who voted for annexation of Sikkim into India and Vietnam was seen as one nation divided between two governments. The only comparable case of those mentioned by you are China's annexation of Tibet. And last time Iraq tried to annex another country (the invasion of Kuwait), the Iraqi army was expelled from the annexed country by the USA.

Independent Kurdish anywhere is a threat to the territorial integrity of any of the four countries that hold Kurdish land.

But Serbia accepts the independence of Albania in spite of Kosovo. And many South Kurds consider it a realistic possibility that Turkey will stay out of an Iraqi and Iranian invasion of South (Iraqi) Kurdistan. Link to source: www.rudaw.net/english/analysis/02112017?keyword=&isArchive=True
If independent South Kurdistan doesn't claim Turkish territory and if independent South Kurdistan opposes PKK, then Turkey might accept the independence of South Kurdistan. If Turkey invades South Kurdistan, Kurdish separatism in Turkey may be strengthened rather than weakened, and an independent South Kurdistan is a potential dumping ground for Kurdish separatists in Turkey and, if Turkey is governed by Islamists, for Zoroastrian Kurds and other non-Muslim Kurds.

Azadi
 
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last time Iraq tried to annex another country (the invasion of Kuwait), the Iraqi army was expelled from the annexed country by the USA.
US had strategic interests in preventing an Iraqi annexation, it has none for Kurdistan. If the US supports an Independent Kurdistan it will piss off Turkey,Syria,Iraq, and Iran .

But Serbia accepts the independence of Albania in spite of Kosovo.
That because stronger powers forced it too and closer comparison would be pre-world war 1 Poland

many South Kurds consider it a realistic possibility that Turkey will stay out of an Iraqi and Iranian invasion of South (Iraqi) Kurdistan.
Staying out =/= supporting independence as shown by Turkish actions during the 2017 referendum.
 

azadi

Banned
That because stronger powers forced it too and closer comparison would be pre-world war 1 Poland

Serbia doesn't accept Albania's independence because stronger powers forces it to. Serbia doesn't WANT to annex Albania, and even during Milosevic's reign Serbia didn't want to annex Albania. NATO has forced Serbia to de-facto accept the independence of KOSOVO despite Serbia still claiming Kosovo.

US had strategic interests in preventing an Iraqi annexation, it has none for Kurdistan. If the US supports an Independent Kurdistan it will piss off Turkey,Syria,Iraq, and Iran .

I don't speak about establishing an independent Kurdish state, but about annexation of an already independent Kurdish state. And in my first post, i wrote that it was RUSSIA who would support Juche Kurdistan.

Staying out =/= supporting independence as shown by Turkish actions during the 2017 referendum.

It is true that Turkey didn't support South Kurdish independence during the 2017 referendum, but the article I linked to concerns a Kurdish strategy to make Turkey change that stance. Have you read the article I linked to at all? And it will be sufficient for South Kurdistan if Turkey stays out of an Iraqi and Iranian invasion of South Kurdistan.

I think that you in general are focused too much on the OTL current situation in Kurdistan. In an ATL, where an independent Kurdish state has already been established in e.g. during the Cold War, the interests of e.g. Turkey may be much different.

Azadi
 
I have read many threads on AH.com about other countries developing in a similar way to North Korea. But nobody have mentioned Kurdistan in any of these threads. Why?


Kurdistan has in my opinion the building blocks for developing its own version of Juche: A strong tradition combining socialism and nationalism and a sense of being encircled by enemies ("We Kurds have no friends but the mountains"). There is also a strong identification with pre-Islamic Iranic civilization in Kurdistan and there has recently been a significant revival of Zoroastrianism in South (Iraqi) Kurdistan.


If Kurdistan or at least a part of Kurdistan achieves independence under a communist or socialist regime, it may develop into a Kurdish version of Juche. The Kurdish version of Juche will establish a socialist planned economy on the Soviet model, but perhaps without collectivization of agriculture.


It will identify itself with the Median Empire (the Medes were a Kurdish tribe). It will repress Islam or will at least remove Islam from the public space (e.g. banning hijab, banning the call to prayer from minarets, banning female genital mutilation and banning segregation of genders in public facilities). It will promote Zoroastrianism as an authentic Kurdish religion. It will also tolerate Yazidism, Yarism (Ahl e-Haqq) and Alevi Islam as native Kurdish religions. It will be tolerant of Jews and Judaism, because tolerance towards Jews and Judaism is a Kurdish tradition. It will ban Christian missionaries from Western countries from entering Kurdistan, but will not persecute Christian Kurds.


It will hate Arabs, especially Iraqis and Syrians. It will also be opposed to Turkey. It will consider Iran as a brother nation lead astray by Islamists. It will support Israel strongly and will recognize Jerusalem as the undivided capital of Israel. It will be allied with Russia and will recognize Crimea as Russian territory. Russia will be to Juche Kurdistan what China is to North Korea. It will also have friendly relations with Belarus and with Kazakhstan (a secular dictatorship with Communist roots belonging partly to the Iranic cultural sphere). It will also have friendly relations with Venezuela under Hugo Chavez and Nicolas Maduro, with Communist Cuba, with Nicaragua under Daniel Ortega and with Bolivia under Evo Morales.

The Kurdish Juche regime will expel all Arabs and Turks from Kurdistan. Armenians may be allowed to remain in Kurdistan. Kurdish Jews will be allowed to remain in Kurdistan and Kurdish Jews who have emigrated to Israel will be allowed to return to Kurdistan. Assyrians will be expelled from Kurdistan as they will be considered Christian Iraqis.

Kurdistan's mountainous geography will enable isolation of Kurdistan from the outside world. If Kurdistan controls the Kirkuk oil fields, Kurdish Juche will be strengthened significantly. Juche Kurdistan may develop nuclear weapons with the help of Russia.

There will be significant differences between Kurdish Juche and North Korean Juche. Kurdistan's monotheist heritage will prevent claiming that the Serok (leader, the Kurdish equivalent of Duce) is divine. It may be less totalitarian, while still being severely authoritarian with mass repression of counterrevolutionaries and with especially severe repression against Islamists. There will be prison camps in the Kurdish mountains and executions of Islamists and other counterrevolutionaries will often happen.

Azadi
So nationalistic socialists with isolationist leanings sitting on a mountain of oil? So basically a landlocked version of Gadaffi's Libya?
 

azadi

Banned
Evo Morales' Bolivia is a closer parallel. Especially Felix Patzi, a former education minister in Evo Morales' government, who worships Pachamama, the Mother Earth goddess of the Incan religion.

Azadi
 
Serbia doesn't accept Albania's independence because stronger powers forces it to. Serbia doesn't WANT to annex Albania
It planned to partition the country with Greece and Montenegrin pre-world war 1 and afterwards planned to partition it with Greece and Italy.

even during Milosevic's reign
His plan to deal with Albanian irredentism was to remove them.

i wrote that it was RUSSIA who would support Juche Kurdistan.
Would piss off Syria,Iraq, and Iran

In an ATL, where an independent Kurdish state has already been established in e.g. during the Cold War, the interests of e.g. Turkey may be much different.
The only time you would get an independent Kurdish state during the cold war is if the Soviets remain in Northern Iran in 1946 in which case it will be Soviet Puppet until 1991 afterward Iran will move in
 
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azadi

Banned
It planned to partition the country with Greece and Montenegrin pre-world war 1 and afterwards planned to partition it with Greece and Italy.

It is roughly 100 years ago. I had the impression that you were speaking of present-day Serbia and Albania (and not about Kosovo). There has not been any Serbian wish to annex Albania since the plans for Albania becoming a Republic of Yugoslavia in the 1940's.

His plan to deal with Albanian irredentism was to remove them.

Yes, but from Kosovo TO Albania. And Turkey may want to remove rebellious Kurds from Turkish territory to an independent South Kurdistan.

Would piss off Syria,Iraq, and Iran

Russia supported Kurdish independence somewhat in September 2017.

The only time you would get an independent Kurdish state during the cold war is if the Soviets remain in Northern Iran in 1946 in which case it will be Soviet Puppet until 1991 afterward Iran will move in

My preferred POD for a Juche Kurdistan is the Iraqi political crisis in 1959, which may have resulted in an independent South Kurdistan ruled by a communist regime.
And why are you constantly speaking of annexations of other sovereign states without support from their populations as something normal and acceptable? It has been anathema to the international community since the end of WW2 and especially since the end of the Cold War. No annexations have happened since the end of the Cold War without majority support from the population of the annexed area. Why are you so opposed to Kurdish independence, that you speaks of annexation of ATL sovereign Kurdish states by neighbouring countries as something normal and acceptable?

Azadi
 
Yes, but from Kosovo TO Albania. And Turkey may want to remove rebellious Kurds from Turkish territory to an independent South Kurdistan.
It would still support Iraqi attempts to reannex Kurdistan

My preferred POD for a Juche Kurdistan is the Iraqi political crisis in 1959, which may have resulted in an independent South Kurdistan ruled by a communist regime
Given how Hostile the surrounding countries were to communism I doubt that would work.
And why are you constantly speaking of annexations of other sovereign states without support from their populations as something normal and acceptable?
A Soviet Puppet Kurdish republic in Northern Iran won't be international recognized.

that you speaks of annexation of ATL sovereign Kurdish states by neighbouring countries as something normal and acceptable?
Because they won't be international recognized and surrounded by hostile neighbors. They would have status similar to Novorossiya but no outside backers or a coast. If you want an independent Kurdistan have it be created after world war 1 by the British.
 
hmm
well for this independent kurdistan to survive, this "hermit kingdom" some form of MAD can be used to neighboring countries.
Nuclear weapons will be hard to develop, but massive chemical warheads and biological attacks could be the MAD threat, so everyone else just lets it exist, not even considering pressuring it worthless. The effect is this dangerous precedent of pursuing weapons will lead to any countries, or tourists staying clear. Calling it a pariah would be an understatement.
Also the weapons iraq and iran develop to counter Kurdistan will lead to an arms race, causing israel to probably panic. Middle east living in a state of constant fear of someone's impulses exploding.
 
It will identify itself with the Median Empire (the Medes were a Kurdish tribe). It will repress Islam or will at least remove Islam from the public space (e.g. banning hijab, banning the call to prayer from minarets, banning female genital mutilation and banning segregation of genders in public facilities). It will promote Zoroastrianism as an authentic Kurdish religion. It will also tolerate Yazidism, Yarism (Ahl e-Haqq) and Alevi Islam as native Kurdish religions. It will be tolerant of Jews and Judaism, because tolerance towards Jews and Judaism is a Kurdish tradition. It will ban Christian missionaries from Western countries from entering Kurdistan, but will not persecute Christian Kurds.

Given that Kurds, especially the Turkish ones, and the Syrian ones too IIRC, are more religiously conservative than the average Sunni Turk or Syrian, that will go down as well as the NPA or Shining Path's anti-clerical efforts.
 
Almost impossible, since Kurdistan would be an ethnically, linguistically, and religiously diverse country where an ideology like Juche couldn't take hold. Korea is an almost completely homogenous nation, or was back in the 1950s when Juche took root. Can the Kurds overcome internal religious and linguistic differences to assert dominance over the Arabs, Assyrians, Turkmens, etc. they'll share their country with? Minorities of any sort are a threat to any Juche-analogue, and at best are show props to show how great and tolerant the regime is (i.e. North Korea's "churches").

Second, Kurdistan is landlocked. This is a huge problem for a Juche state, since they'd be far too dependent on their neighbours and lack a port which gives them a lot more leverage globally (see North Korea's infiltration attempts of Japan). Third, what resources do they have? DPRK has rich deposits of coal, iron, rare-earths, and other important resources which have allowed them to actually have some self-sufficiency and industrial strength. Without this, you can't have the threat which DPRK can pose with its massive military. Fourth, do they have anything besides WMDs? DPRK has artillery pointed at Seoul and the knowledge that starting a fight with them means crashing East Asia's markets and thus causing a global recession (if not worse). Kurdistan can do what? Threaten oil supplies, and quite poorly at that compared to Iran, Iraq, or the Gulf monarchies? Unleash a crippling flood with their control of dams on the Tigris and Euphrates? Incidentally, North Korea has also weaponised dams, and South Korea found the solution was to build a dam downstream for the sole purpose of containing the flood North Korea might unleash. South Kurdistan doesn't have the demographics of DPRK either. Current population is what, about 10 million? DPRK has over twice as many people.

The final challenge is getting the ideology of Kurdish Juche created. Juche is literally national socialism with Confucian characteristics. Kurdish "Juche" would presumably also end up national socialist (actual socialists would be purged over the years, as has happened in DPRK), but would need a sort of relatable tradition as Confucianism is in Korea. So it would need roots in Islam. Maybe like Gaddafi's Libya or certain elements of Ba'athism, at least in terms of religious inspiration for policies? Still kind of hard when you have such a huge diversity in faiths amongst the regime's Kurdish master race. You could have a songbun sort of system like DPRK does, but in DPRK it's mostly class-based and based on ancestry. Basing a caste system on tribes or faiths is much more obvious to the oppressed (compared to in North Korea where a low-caste individual might not know why they are low class). Juche-type ideologies cannot have such blatant tribalism.

Evo Morales' Bolivia is a closer parallel. Especially Felix Patzi, a former education minister in Evo Morales' government, who worships Pachamama, the Mother Earth goddess of the Incan religion.

Azadi

Bolivia's nowhere near as repressive, brutal, secretive, or nationalistic as North Korea, nor has it raised a colossal army and developed WMDs to threaten its neighbours. If Bolivia really wanted to get access to the sea back, then they'd make it very well known to Chile (and Peru) with a colossal army and many missiles on the border.
 
Evo Morales' Bolivia is a closer parallel. Especially Felix Patzi, a former education minister in Evo Morales' government, who worships Pachamama, the Mother Earth goddess of the Incan religion.

Azadi
I thought you wanted a Juche state, not whatever Bolivia is at this time.

also:
It will identify itself with the Median Empire (the Medes were a Kurdish tribe). It will repress Islam or will at least remove Islam from the public space (e.g. banning hijab, banning the call to prayer from minarets, banning female genital mutilation and banning segregation of genders in public facilities). It will promote Zoroastrianism as an authentic Kurdish religion. It will also tolerate Yazidism, Yarism (Ahl e-Haqq) and Alevi Islam as native Kurdish religions. It will be tolerant of Jews and Judaism, because tolerance towards Jews and Judaism is a Kurdish tradition. It will ban Christian missionaries from Western countries from entering Kurdistan, but will not persecute Christian Kurds.
Congratulations this Kurdish state is not only the target of Arab, Iranian, and Turkish irredentism, but has also done everything in its power to ask for a sectarian conflict.
 
Zoroastrianism as an authentic Kurdish religion. It will also tolerate Yazidism, Yarism (Ahl e-Haqq) and Alevi Islam as native Kurdish religions. It will be tolerant of Jews and Judaism, because tolerance towards Jews and Judaism is a Kurdish tradition.
Well done you have just united the turks, iranians and arabs togather against them.
I love you ignore bad parts of kurdish culture such as how FGM is most common among kurds in iraq and play it as islamic but oh the good stuff is all kurdish. Also so what are all kurds crypto Zoroastrians? Cause kurds who care for the their religion will fight this.

Also why the fuck would the soviets support the kurds over the islamic world? Please explain as the soviets tried their hardest to cosy up to it.
 

azadi

Banned
The Kurdish Juche regime will not try to eradicate Islam in Kurdistan. It will just reduce it to a private matter, like in Kazakhstan. It will only ban hijabs, female genital mutilation, calls to prayer from minarets and segregation of genders in public. And I know that female genital mutilation is very widespread in South (Iraqi) Kurdistan, that's why it will be banned. The Kurdish Juche regime will not force anybody to convert to Zoroastrianism, but it will promote it as part of Kurdistan's cultural heritage.

Azadi
 
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