WI: Joseph Smith isn't killed at Carthage?

Zioneer

Banned
why? that just means they welcome blacks into their Church hierarchy.

Ah, but remember, there's splinter branches today who STILL don't accept blacks as Church leaders, like the FLDS. And way back in the 1840s, there's probably going to be a large group of members who don't agree with blacks having the priesthood.

So I assume there's going to be major racial tensions, perhaps even a minor split.

to merge the two branches of Native Americans? (Jews and i forget what the other group was believed to be called)
Jaredites, but they can't merge those, because according to the Book of Mormon, the Jaredites died out a few hundred years into the history of the Nephites.

then don't send the blacks there (or maybe the ATL Church is more "we suffer as Jesus suffered")
The second option actually seems the more realistic one; Kimball was the never complaining type, and might see the "refiners fire" as a good thing.


except if you put that cap on the population and send off all the young men, suddenly Utah looks far too hostile to be a viable long-term residence.

Hmm... Good point. Perhaps a push for more middle-aged missionaries would be sensible.

unless you get the Comanche (massive trade empire from Canada to Mexico) involved on the Mormon's side. not sure if this would play into or against the hands of the "we must marry all Native Americans" group.
Hmm... Comache-Mormons. I like the sound of that. Perhaps the pro-Native American splinter group arms and aids them? Hmm...


maybe he thought he didn't deserve more than one. (as opposed to being against plural marriage)
Well, seeing as how the other leaders explicitly had the notion of "eewww plural marriage, wait this isn't this bad", apart from Samuel, I'm more willing to bet that he was quietly disturbed by polygamy.
 
Last edited:

Keenir

Banned
Ah, but remember, there's splinter branches today who STILL don't accept blacks as Church leaders, like the FLDS. And way back in the 1840s, there's probably going to be a large group of members who don't agree with blacks having the priesthood.

maybe if the argument is framed as "would you rather have a black as a Sunday-school teacher, or as the equal of whites?" ?

Jaredites, but they can't merge those, because according to the Book of Mormon, the Jaredites died out a few hundred years into the history of the Nephites.

that is a problem.

The second option actually seems the more realistic one; Kimball was the never complaining type, and might see the "refiners fire" as a good thing.

sort of a "if you can survive the South, you can survive anywhere" argument?
 

Zioneer

Banned
sort of a "if you can survive the South, you can survive anywhere" argument?

More like "if you can teach in the South", but yeah. I might have Kimball stick a majority black colony in Texas, and the Texans violently objecting.
 
Hmm... Good point. Perhaps a push for more middle-aged missionaries would be sensible.
While I'm not sure of the exact date, the first missionaries to be sent out were not exactly the current 19yr old single guy. They were often married, and fairly well off (had to be, given the cost). I know it was McKay in 1960 who down-ed the min age from 21 to 19, but I'm not sure when it was formally set at 21 before then.
If you're worried about the population bit, simply keep sending out old-er / middle aged guys who've already had a lot of kids (and or the more senior church leaders) until, say, the early 1900's or until you get a 'critical mass'.
That (may) have the additional advantage of seeing more experienced guys heading out, and a (possibly) more effective missionary force out there.

Or, you could easily send out the entire family (if not too big...), and turn a mission into a 4~8 year gig, with the missionaries supporting themselves along the way (through employment of family members). Sort of a family calling.
 
Sidney Rigdon is possible, but you need Joseph to live awhile so there can be an obvious reconciliation/rehabilitation of Sidney. They were on the outs at the time of Carthage. Samuel was largely seen as not much of a leader at all. I don't see him as likely.

Your idea about the relation of the Prophet to the head of the 12 is interesting. Sort of a Chairman of the Board/CEO model, or CEO/COO?

Alternate miracles? Hmm. If you really are going to have someone besides Brigham be the prophet-president, but with Brigham still having an active role, relations inside the LDS hierarchy might well be . . . tense. Like Paul's dispute with Peter at Jerusalem. Perhaps you could have a miracle of some kind that reconciles the various leadership factions over some doctrinal dispute they are having (perhaps to do with, say, blacks in the priesthood or abolition or relations with the US).

As for false miracles, I think a second Mormon Battalion or Nauvo Legion sent back east to fight in the Civil War (assuming its not butterflied, which I doubt it will be) would be cool. And you could have a widely believed but historically very unreliable legend that they got to shoot down Missouri mobsters in some engagement or other.

An update on my current ideas so far:

-Either Samuel Harrison Smith (one of the Smith brothers, of course) or Sidney Rigdon seem to be the best candidates if Joseph dies. Rigdon was in the First Presidency, and never excommunicated (despite being on bad terms with Joseph by the end of Joseph's life). This is if I decide to go the "Joseph and Hyrum are both killed" route.

-Both Rigdon and Samuel seem to have been somewhat opposed to polygamy, Rigdon moreso. Samuel is confirmed to only have one wife, and a source from a book I distrust ( The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, I think it's called) claims that Samuel "detested" polygamy. Could lead to a power struggle with Brigham.

-Oliver Cowdery could have been a good successor as well, but I personally don't think the general LDS population would accept a leader who had been once excommunicated.

-If either Samuel or Rigdon become Prophet/President of the Church, they will likely ally with the other against rival successors. Samuel may prefer to simply continue his missionary efforts, and even if he becomes Prophet, may favor incredibly aggressive missionary polices over other issues.

-On the other hand, Rigdon was a powerful orator, and several historians credit him with inflaming tensions that led up to the Mormon War. Would he have fled Nauvoo as Brigham did? He'd likely have a great focus on missionary policies as well, though.

-I want to keep Brigham as a leader in the Church, but not of the Church, so I'm toying with whoever ends up as prophet striking a deal or two with Brigham and his followers. None of the other candidates seem as autocratic (which can be a good thing when trying to keep the Church together, just not in this case) as Young was.

-I'm toying with Rigdon or Samuel Smith relying much more on the Apostles then Joseph did. Maybe they keep Brigham Young as an Apostle, and let him organize the westward migration efforts, in return for shutting up about being the "true" successor?

-Also; speaking of westward migration, I feel it will be a bit slower due to Brigham not having absolute command, but not by much. I still think that the Saints will end up in Utah, though. It's well-situated for their plans and desires, and any farther will be nigh-suicidal. Any suggestions for alternate routes or miracles?

-Speaking of miracles, I believe in *most* of them as a Mormon, but as I'm changing Mormon history by changing it's leaders, I'm open to different kinds of miracles happening (and of course false miracles and controversial stuff popping up).

-Since Brigham won't be leader, blacks will have the priesthood. This will likely have immense ramifications on the church both in the long-term and short term. A fiercely abolitionist Mormon faction could rise in the political structure of the West. Some clashes with slaveholding groups might happen.

-With a strong missionary program, the expansion of the Church will likely be quicker in other countries.

-Also, fun fact: Governor Boggs, the charming fellow who gave the Extermination Order was later in a wagon train group that divided itself on the basis of what route they would take. One of the groups? The Donner Party.


Anyways, any further thoughts on my musings of a plan to take for the alt-LDS Church? Suggestions are quite welcome.
 
Heber C. was notorious for his frequent visions and prophecies and revelations and general emphasis on spiritual gifts. If he's the successor, there will almost certainly be additional revelations added to the D&C; the LDS church as a whole is more likely to emphasize spiritual gifts, meaning that there might be more of a pentecostal tinge to our worship than in OTL, and meaning that the successive Prophets are much more likely to discuss visions and revelations and such, at least for awhile; there might also be a 'charismatic' element to church leadership succession that is missing in OTL.

-With Brigham's death, if I also kill off Hyrum Smith, leadership of the Church rightfully goes to Heber C Kimball, by all accounts a humble, honest, obedient, and horribly shy man. Perhaps too meek for the leadership, but lets assume that he becomes Prophet and learns how to be somewhat forceful.
 
Top