WI: Joseph Kennedy Jr. Lives?

Lots of people have projected themselves making it to the White House, surprisingly only 44 of them have ever been correct in that projection. :rolleyes:

Much like Quentin Roosevelt, Joe Kennedy is by no means owed the White House no matter how often people assume he was in AH.

Unlike others, Papa Joe was going to run his dynasty at the White House like a kamikaze pilot.

Regardless, the fact that the Kennedy's were always eying and working towards the White House, did attain the White House, came close with Bobby and Teddy to reclaiming the White House, and still remain a political force is a reason to very seriously consider and take seriously Joe Kennedy in the White House. Jack Kennedy picked up what Joe was meant to do. We know Joe Kennedy was aiming for the highest office.
 

Japhy

Banned
Unlike others, Papa Joe was going to run his dynasty at the White House like a kamikaze pilot.

Regardless, the fact that the Kennedy's were always eying and working towards the White House, did attain the White House, came close with Bobby and Teddy to reclaiming the White House, and still remain a political force is a reason to very seriously consider and take seriously Joe Kennedy in the White House. Jack Kennedy picked up what Joe was meant to do. We know Joe Kennedy was aiming for the highest office.

That continues to ignore the fact though that Joe Junior, Might Just Blow It.

So what his father wanted him to do it, so what his younger brother did do it, (By a razor thin margin. Further Side note: Its kinda funny to suggest that Bobby could have won in '68 or Teddy in '80) so what he was groomed for it? He's not destined too it, I know that you're a big fan of the Kennedys but that doesn't mean that they're inevitably going to pull it off. They all might miss the chance, they wouldn't be the only dynasty in American History to fall short. You can't assume that whomever is up at bat, in the late 50's and early 60's is going to make it.
 
Lots of people have projected themselves making it to the White House, surprisingly only 44 of them have ever been correct in that projection. :rolleyes:

Now, now, don't forget the Chester Arthurs and the Harry Trumans and Gerald Fords, a few Presidents who never projected themselves to make it into the White House, but did anyways.

I see Joe fucking up somewhere, he's too much like Appeasement Papa. But the horde of butterflies this unleashes makes the question basically moot.
 

Japhy

Banned
Now, now, don't forget the Chester Arthurs and the Harry Trumans and Gerald Fords, a few Presidents who never projected themselves to make it into the White House, but did anyways.

I see Joe fucking up somewhere, he's too much like Appeasement Papa. But the horde of butterflies this unleashes makes the question basically moot.

I'd have to agree on all points.
 
(By a razor thin margin. Further Side note: Its kinda funny to suggest that Bobby could have won in '68 or Teddy in '80)
I don't think there's any active posters on this board who thinks Ted Kennedy had a legitimate shot of winning in 1980. (I'd love to write a TL on it but I haven't done all the research I'd like to, and POD is messy considering the unique nature of the race.)

On the other hand, it seems to be considered a given that JFK wins re-election in 1964, which I find kind of funny when we consider his brothers unlikely victors and his own election kind of unlikely.
 
I think having the name Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. would have been an impediment in 1960 to a generation of veterans to whom the name was somewhat synonymous with appeasement and defeatism. Perhaps a distinguished war record would have ameliorated that, but the fact remains that one of the key attributes of JFK's character -- dealing with immense personal adversity (health problems) -- would likely be absent. Joe, Jr. could well wind up being a swell of the type we had with GW Bush; a man who coasted to high office with little adversity and an attitude of entitlement under family circumstances that are somewhat similar.

From what I know, it's hard to imagine a Joe, Jr. making a joke about getting a telegram from his father saying "I'll be damned if I'll pay for a landslide."

While I'm no Kennedy worshiper, JFK did have a pretty decent sense of the absurd, his own failings and a certain connaissance of how fortunate he was to be where he was due to things he had no control over. And his brother's death (and his sister's) gave him a sense of mortality that an older brother, pushed by his father who shared his name to be POTUS, might have lacked.

But, then again, this is all speculation about a man who died in his 20s. Who the hell can say they really know?
 
I think if Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. had survived World War II, he would have been on a political trajectory very similar to (in the OTL) his younger brother Jack: a Congressional seat in 1948, then a Senate seat some time in the early to mid 1950's, then a run at the Presidency in 1960.

We're all forgetting that in the OTL, up until 1960 NOBODY thought a Catholic could become President--indeed, that was why Al Smith failed in his Presidential bid in 1928. Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. would have faced the same issue, and probably would not have won the nomination during the 1950's.
 
That continues to ignore the fact though that Joe Junior, Might Just Blow It.

So what his father wanted him to do it, so what his younger brother did do it, (By a razor thin margin. Further Side note: Its kinda funny to suggest that Bobby could have won in '68 or Teddy in '80) so what he was groomed for it? He's not destined too it, I know that you're a big fan of the Kennedys but that doesn't mean that they're inevitably going to pull it off. They all might miss the chance, they wouldn't be the only dynasty in American History to fall short. You can't assume that whomever is up at bat, in the late 50's and early 60's is going to make it.

You can't disregard the fact that he has a very strong prospect of achieving the presidency so that part of the scenario is important to discuss.

(And Bobby could have won 1968. Teddy, I'm not so sure about.)
 

Japhy

Banned
You can't disregard the fact that he has a very strong prospect of achieving the presidency so that part of the scenario is important to discuss.

(And Bobby could have won 1968. Teddy, I'm not so sure about.)

Of course you can't disregard it. The point I'm making is that is never disregarded. Every discussion on him, including however many you've started over the years, are all based on him making it and he might not. Its worth considering for once.
 
Magniac said:
it's ridiculous to wipe out all the butterflies that result from Joe living, therefore allowing both him and Stevenson to get to a national convention twelve years later...

How do we know that Joe living doesn't have a positive effect on some other promising guy
So Joe Jr lives =Stevenson doesn't even run? I find that a bit hard to swallow, since you'd have to change his personality quite a bit, wouldn't you?

Or do you mean there's a *Stevenson TTL, unknown (or virtually) OTL?
 
POD: Joe runs for Lt. Gov. in 1946(this is one option that JFK consider) with state wide name exposure he run for the Senate seat of Stonesall (sp) in 48(also an option that JFK had consider) with two terms in the Senate by 1960, Joe wouldnhave been a national figure. I forgot to add that if his mission was successful, Joe would have been awarded the Navy Cross at the least, and most probably the MOH. That would have taken care of "Papa Joe the Appeaser " as it did in OTL. Just for fun think of this, Joe.marrys socialite on the make Jackie Bouvie.
 
I'm listening to a Kennedy audio tape now (which is changing my mind on certain things. One of which is my previous assumption that the mantle was placed on Jack after Joe died. It wasn't. It's fairer to say Joe Sr's hopes for the White House were dead and accepted as such until Jack showed he had a knack for politics, and then it came back in a second phase) where John Kennedy says that while he himself is an introvert (unlike men like his Grandfather and Hubert Humphrey) and would rather read and not go out and campaign and greet people and kiss babies, though he does because he know he has to, Joe was a natural extrovert.

That's another explanation of his personality, and makes my Nixon analogy much more complex. Whereas Nixon was an awkward man, not particularly concerned to interact with people, Joe would be a man who went out and shook everyone's hand and was happy to do so and charm them. And at the same time, having as an extrovert with all those bigotries and thoughts Nixon had as an introvert.
 
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Norton, IIRC, didn't Jack want to be a journalist before having politics thrust upon him by Papa following Joe Jr's death?
 
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