WI: Josef I Didn't Die in 1711?

As it says on the tin. What if the Holy Roman Emperor called by many the Empire's answer to the "Sun King" survives/or never catches the smallpox that killed him in 1711?
 
Then there is no worry of England supporting the recreation of the Personal Empire of Charles V. Partly the reason why the war ended the way it did was because total victory for either side effectively makes the balance of power kaput. With Joseph I surviving, Britain doesn't necessarily have to quit the war.

Now granted, I don't exactly see the war lasting longer either, but I can say that should Joseph still die without a male heir, it's matter of if the Austrian Succession conflict will be a thing.
 
Well, I figure that even if Josef I still lacks a son, his eldest daughter might have an easier time succeeding him - a la Maria Theresia (i.e. married with children) - at least to the non-imperial titles, which might go to her uncle or a cousin.

After all Karl VI still forced Maria Theresia and Franz Stefan to sign a document after they were married wherein he stipulated that if he had a son (so presumably that he would outlive his wife), they would waive their right to the entire inheritance.
 
Although it should be noted, that should another scenario exists, it would make Maria Josepha the most attractive bride in Europe, since whomever marries her, effectively secures the husband the title of Holy Roman Empire, and secures the Habsburg inheritance in Germany and Central Europe for their progeny.
 
WI we change it slightly? Wilhelmine dies either after birthing her younger daughter or of an illness at a later point, say she gets the pox in '11 instead of Josef, leaving Josef to remarry. Who might carry the prize home? And considering he already had syphilis (or some venereal disease that he had passed on to Wilhelmine), can we get at least one or at most two healthy kids out of him? Or do we need a POD that stops him getting that disease entirely?
 
Personally, I'd suggest the PoD to get rid of that syphilis. Joseph gave his wife Wilhelmine Amalia von Brunswick-Lueneberg that disease and it rendered her sterile. Get rid of the syphilis (Joseph got it from and I got this from Wikipedia so take this with a lot of salt, the daughter of a gardener in 1704), and the chances of a male heir for Joseph increases exponentially.
 
Personally, I'd suggest the PoD to get rid of that syphilis. Joseph gave his wife Wilhelmine Amalia von Brunswick-Lueneberg that disease and it rendered her sterile. Get rid of the syphilis (Joseph got it from and I got this from Wikipedia so take this with a lot of salt, the daughter of a gardener in 1704), and the chances of a male heir for Joseph increases exponentially.

Well, whom he contracted it from doesn't really matter, he got it because he couldn't keep it in his britches:D. So just make him a touch more prone to keep to his marriage bed - I read that HE chose Wilhelmine and that neither his mother nor his uncle (the Elector Johann Wilhelm) were pleased with the choice (a contrast to wikipedia which seems to imply that his mother chose Wilhelmine for him), so I don't think that it's too hard.

But I was hoping that this thread would focus more on how Josef's reign might progress? I know he was a good friend of Eugen of Savoy, and if not for his death, Schönbrunn Palace would look more like Versailles. Plus he was an amateur architect and musician in his own right.

I could be wrong, but I feel that even IF Maria Josefa stayed his heiress presumptive to all but the Imperial title, he wouldn't have made Karl VI's mistake with the pragmatic sanction etc? What does everyone else think?
 
Joseph would probably never make such a mistake because he knew that the titles would end up in Habsburg hands, his daughter for the hereditary lands, and his brother for the Imperial title. Yes, the Habsburg succession was still in trouble even before Joseph, but not at the critical mass situation that OTL Charles VI ended up putting himself in.

Unfortunately, I don't know too much on Joseph the character to really say how his reign over Austria would be.
 
I could be wrong here, but I think his friendship with Eugen of Savoy could lead to Austrian expansion from Hungary into Serbia (as OTL) as well as perhaps reforms to the Imperial Army. I wonder how Josef would deal with the fallout with Rakoczi's rebellion? But at the same time it could be costly to have a soldier king who just happens to have Louis XIV-type tastes. Although, the Spanish court ceremony might not be introduced in Vienna with no Karl VI though.

Also, might Maria Josefa and Maria Amalia marry differently than OTL if their father is still alive - Maria Josefa most likely since if she's recognized as her father's heiress in lieu of a brother.
 
And, of course, if Joseph knows he isn't going to get Spain, he may not be so interested in hanging on to outlying Spanish possessions in Italy. So the Elector of Bavaria might find himself becoming King of Naples instead, with Bavaria going to Austria.
 

Vitruvius

Donor
And, of course, if Joseph knows he isn't going to get Spain, he may not be so interested in hanging on to outlying Spanish possessions in Italy. So the Elector of Bavaria might find himself becoming King of Naples instead, with Bavaria going to Austria.

That was bandied about OTL during the negotiations at Geertruidenburg and later at Utrecht. But it was a French proposal. Since Bavaria was at the time occupied by Austria anyways and the Elector in exile in France they wanted a way to compensate him for his loyalty and gain him a crown (allegedly). The Austrians turned it down as they saw it as a French attempt to drive a wedge between Austria and the German states by upsetting the balance of power in the Empire and casting Austria as expansionist and aggressive. Something that I'm sure factored into French strategy.

But here Joseph may be more inclined to that to accept. Except that it would mean disinheriting his brother Charles, whose Italian territories he would be bartering away. That's a bit of a tougher obstacle to overcome. Seems like it could only be done in a scenario where Joseph publicly and explicitly acknowledges Charles as his heir.

Its also worth noting that if Joseph lives longer then Charles stays in Spain rather than returning to Austria to become Emperor. I doubt that militarily the allies would do better in the Spanish campaign post 1711 that they did OTL. But it does mean that Charles stays with his wife whom he left in Barcelona as Regent OTL. So there's the possibility of a child, maybe a son, being born in 1712-1713. If Charles has a healthy son before the Peace of Utrecht it makes him a better heir for Joseph. After all what's the point of passing Austria to your brother if it looks like the male line of the Habsburgs is still going to die out. But if you can see your nephew carrying on that line it makes more sense to pass over your own daughters to preserve the Habsburg dynasty.
 
But here Joseph may be more inclined to that to accept. Except that it would mean disinheriting his brother Charles, whose Italian territories he would be bartering away. That's a bit of a tougher obstacle to overcome. Seems like it could only be done in a scenario where Joseph publicly and explicitly acknowledges Charles as his heir.

I don't think Karl/Carlos was overly concerned with the Italian inheritance being bartered away, since with the exception of Naples, he didn't seem to have a problem with the island-kingdoms. He bartered away Sicily to the house of Savoy at Utrecht, then after the Quadruple Alliance, he traded Sicily for Sardinia with them. And at some point he also was willing to set his cousin, Infante Manuel of Portugal, as the "king of Sardinia and Corsica". The idea fell through when the king of Portugal refused to grant his assent to the idea. Much like Joao V refused his consent for the infante to pursue the Polish crown later.

Just my two cents.
 

Vitruvius

Donor
I don't think Karl/Carlos was overly concerned with the Italian inheritance being bartered away, since with the exception of Naples, he didn't seem to have a problem with the island-kingdoms. He bartered away Sicily to the house of Savoy at Utrecht, then after the Quadruple Alliance, he traded Sicily for Sardinia with them. And at some point he also was willing to set his cousin, Infante Manuel of Portugal, as the "king of Sardinia and Corsica". The idea fell through when the king of Portugal refused to grant his assent to the idea. Much like Joao V refused his consent for the infante to pursue the Polish crown later.

Just my two cents.

Ok but Charles didn't negotiate anything at Utrecht as the Austrians weren't really party to that Treaty which was negotiated primarily between the British and French who forced most of the smaller powers (the Dutch, Savoy etc) to sign off with threats of being left to fend for themselves. Austria chose that option and didn't make Peace until Rastatt. So they didn't choose to give away Sicily. And by 1720 when Charles swapped Sicily and Sardinia they were peripheral to him as he was Emperor and ruling Austria, besides which Sicily was a substantial upgrade from Sardinia.

If Joseph lives and remains Emperor in Vienna, and Charles is still forced to abandon Spain, where does he go? The Italian states are the only place where he would be a sovereign ruler so they may be more important to him. When he leaves Barcelona in failure he can go to Naples and rule as King or go to Austria and just be the Emperor's brother with no guarantee of any power or influence. So imagine his brother saying 'sorry but I'm not going to support you in Spain anymore, you'll have to give it up, oh and I gave away your Italian realms so I could have Bavaria, oh and I'm naming my daughter my heir not you, but don't worry you still have Milan, good luck.' It just seems unlikely.

If Joseph wants to name Maria Josepha his heir (which I personally find unlikely especially in light of the Mutual Succession Pact) then he can't also trade away his brother's Spanish inheritance in Italy in favor of his daughter inheriting Bavaria. On the other hand if he names Charles as his heir then Charles can return to Vienna with the expectation that he would ultimately benefit from the horsetrading once he (or his child) inherits from Joseph. And with the POD being in 1711 there's all the possibility that Charles will have or maybe already have had a son to carry on the Habsburg line.
 
Interesting possibilities with this. Concerns about appearances aside, Habsburg expansion into Bavaria is advantageous if only as a buffer against future French intrigues. I do agree, Joseph, with his ambitions in Germany, may accept this.

How about Charles as King of Hungary then, expanding into Serbia and the principalities by conquest? Could this evolve into Kossuth's notion of a Danubian Commonwealth of Magyars, Croats, Serbs and Romanians?

Also would;t it be interesting to have Charles predecease Joseph in the 1730s? That way Maria Theresa inherits Hungary with little ado with the support of her uncle. Will she return the favor for her cousin when it's her time?
 
Interesting possibilities with this. Concerns about appearances aside, Habsburg expansion into Bavaria is advantageous if only as a buffer against future French intrigues. I do agree, Joseph, with his ambitions in Germany, may accept this.

How about Charles as King of Hungary then, expanding into Serbia and the principalities by conquest? Could this evolve into Kossuth's notion of a Danubian Commonwealth of Magyars, Croats, Serbs and Romanians?

Also would;t it be interesting to have Charles predecease Joseph in the 1730s? That way Maria Theresa inherits Hungary with little ado with the support of her uncle. Will she return the favor for her cousin when it's her time?

I remember seeing a TL - back when the world was young - where a surviving widowed Josef (who remarries and gets a son) splits the empire from the Hungarian inheritance, which goes to Karl VI. One of the terms that the split is guaranteed on, is that Josef's heirs have no rights in Hungary whilst Karl's have no rights in the Empire. I could see this happening - though the question is what happens to the Italian inheritance? Does it get ruled from Vienna or Budapest/Pressburg? And what happens if Josef and Karl both leave no sons?
 
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I remember seeing a TL - back when the world was young - where a surviving widowed Josef (who remarries and gets a son) splits the empire from the Hungarian inheritance, which goes to Karl VI. One of the terms that the split is guaranteed on, is that Josef's heirs have no rights in Hungary whilst Karl's have no rights in the Empire. I could see this happening - though the question is what happens to the Italian inheritance? Does it get ruled from Vienna or Budapest/Pressburg? And what happens if Josef and Karl both leave no sons?

Doubt that Josef or Karl would ever agree to something like that, but even if something like that would happen, then it would from Vienna, due to proximity.
 
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