WI: John Reynolds doesn't die at Gettysburg. Replaces Meade when Grant takes over?

While posting in TFSmith121's Burnished Rows of Steel TL(link to the story here) I mentioned a WI regarding the potential command structure of the AOTP if John Reynolds wasn't killed at Gettysburg.

Basically instead of a mortal wound Reynolds is given a wound that knocks him out of the war for a couple of months. Arriving back to the AOTP right around the time the Mine Run Campaign comes to an end. Grant becomes commanding officer of the armed forces like OTL still and like the OTL heads east to take charge. When he arrives instead of keeping Meade he ends up replacing him with Reynolds? What effect would this have on how the rest of the war plays out? How would this effect the Overland Campaign? What about the Battle of the Crater? Would the war end faster or not?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I think Reynolds is overrated. His historical reputation was earned largely through the manner of his death on the battlefield than from his military achievements. After all, being killed at the head of your troops is undoubtedly heroic. As a division and corps commander, he had some successes and some failures, but was far from the best Union general in the Army of the Potomac.
 
I think Reynolds is overrated. His historical reputation was earned largely through the manner of his death on the battlefield than from his military achievements. After all, being killed at the head of your troops is undoubtedly heroic. As a division and corps commander, he had some successes and some failures, but was far from the best Union general in the Army of the Potomac.

You can argue that yeah but don't forget he was offered the job before Lincoln told Meade "Don't care if you don't want it the job is yours".
 

TFSmith121

Banned
One issue is that if Meade is already in command and

One issue is that if Meade is already in command and has won at Gettysburg, pretty questionable that Grant would relieve him before the '64 campaign kicks off; Reynolds might be an interesting choice for the Army of the James (instead of Butler) and/or a consolidated command in the Shenandoah (replacing Sigel et al).

Reynolds was 43 in 1864, and had graduated from USMA in '41; he crossed paths Grant ('43) but Meade hasd graduated in '35. Reynolds went to the artillery and won two brevets in Mexico (captain and major; Grant also earned two, but for lieutenant and captain; Meade earned one, first lieutenant). Meade had been a topographical engineer, which was a rare assignment; Grant was infantry.

Interwar, Reynolds was tactics instructor and Commandant of Cadets at West Point, and remained RA throughout; Grant left the Army after Mexico and came back with a USV commission, while Meade was RA for much of his career but actually left the service in the 1830s and went back.

Reynolds was BG from August, 1861; Meade was as well; Grant's BG ranked from May, however.

Reynolds commanded a brigade in the Pennsylvania Reserves Division on the Peninsula and then rose to command after McCall's capture, including at 2nd Manassas/Bull Run. Reynolds organized the Pennsylvania state troops during the Maryland Campaign in 1862, and then served as CG of the I Corps at Fredericksburg and what amounted to a army-sized detachment (I, III, and XI corps) at Gettysburg before his death.

I could certainly see him as in the mix of potential "new" army commanders in 1863-64, along with Ord and Sheridan; I don't see him replacing Meade with the Army of the Potomac after Gettysburg, however.

Best,
 
Honestly I've always thought it was more Lee lost then Meade won concerning Gettysburg. Meade never really had an impact on the battle other then the poor effort to bag Lee afterwards.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Reynolds might be an interesting choice for the Army of the James (instead of Butler) and/or a consolidated command in the Shenandoah (replacing Sigel et al).

From a military point of view, Reynolds would have been infinitely superior to either of those buffoons. But their appointment was entirely motivated by political factors. With the 1864 election coming up, on which everything depended, Lincoln really had no choice but to give them command where they would get a chance to win some laurels.
 
Honestly I've always thought it was more Lee lost then Meade won concerning Gettysburg. Meade never really had an impact on the battle other then the poor effort to bag Lee afterwards.

Well remember, Meade's army after Gettysburg was battered from three days of hard fighting, and even if he had gone after Lee there's no guarantee they'd catch him. People are always too hard on him about that and tend to forget how brilliantly he did with just three days to reform a demoralized army to fight a major defensive battle. They also forget that Lee had erected excellent defensive positions before Meade could catch him. Considering how those battles usually went, Meade made the right choice in not attacking. Never mind the terrible weather slowed his army just as badly and prevented him from forming his forces up before Lee was able to retreat.

Not to mention how he got burdened with men like Butterfield, who tried to trip Meade up almost every chance he got.
 

True i'll give Meade props for not attacking Lee's defenses but one of my big what ifs is an immediate attack on Lee after Pickets charge ends. However as to how the battle went most everything I've read seems to indicate that Meade never had any real effect on the battle and it was the other officers who were more or less running the show.
 
True i'll give Meade props for not attacking Lee's defenses but one of my big what ifs is an immediate attack on Lee after Pickets charge ends. However as to how the battle went most everything I've read seems to indicate that Meade never had any real effect on the battle and it was the other officers who were more or less running the show.

Part of the point there is that he used his skillful subordinates rather than attempting to manage them I think. He always looked to their advise and generally let them do their work without attempting to micro-manage. Though there are obvious down sides to this, like allowing Sickles to walk all over his authority and not booting out Butterfield when he had the chance because the man was competent.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
EC mentioned it above, but Meade picked up an ARMY in

Honestly I've always thought it was more Lee lost then Meade won concerning Gettysburg. Meade never really had an impact on the battle other then the poor effort to bag Lee afterwards.

EC mentioned it above, but Meade picked up an ARMY in motion to battle, after a major defeat (Chancellorsville), against an enemy that was at the top of his reputation (if not his game), and on the offensive, without any chance to reorganize or relieve the deadwood, and stopped the enemy dead (literally), and then sent them reeling back home. Meade was in the field on Day One of Gettysburg on on the actual battlefield by Day Two, and was sharp enough to allow qualified commanders (including Reynolds) to do their jobs - which can certainly be compared with a previous CG of the Army of the Potomac.

The pursuit was, all in all, probably about as well-managed as possible.

McClellan gets credit for picking up the pieces after 2nd Manassas, but McClellan had more connection with the AotP as whole in 1862 than Meade did in 1863, by far...

Frankly, his tasks in terms of taking over in mid-campaign make Nimitz' challenges in 1942 look simple.

Best,
 
Fair point but as I said one of the greatest What Ifs in the war is the Union after Pickets charge is done and when the AoNV was at its weakest going on the offensive to try and destroy them.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True, but one has to consider the reality

Including the fact that several of Meade's most reliable subordinates, including Reynolds, were gone.

Best,
 
Including the fact that several of Meade's most reliable subordinates, including Reynolds, were gone.

Best,
and his most reliable one remaining is wounded.

I've never really understood Meade tbh. But i think that is mostly because of his failed attempt to follow the AoNV later on in his own campaign south, and that he gave up aftewards to return North. He never really had the ability to display his Command physique - so to speak. If anything, especially with the way he was appointed commander, he always seemed like a caretaker for the army.

Like i mentioned in another thread, by the time Gettysburg came along the AotP was a well oiled machine used to being battered by the Confederates, and by this stage they were not only desperate, but determined to fight for a victory, and they most likely would have gotten it. Meade being in command or not is not really going to change that fact.
 
If anything, especially with the way he was appointed commander, he always seemed like a caretaker for

My opinion of him at least until Grant took over as well. Always figured Lincoln would've replaced him with Reynolds if given the opportunity but both his death and Grant's victories out west(which if Reynolds lives but is knocked out for a couple months thanks to the wound will still happen) means that there was no other choice but to keep him on. By which point he goes from caretaker to competent general.
 
Fair point, but problem is that Meade really didn't do anything else between Gettysburg and when Grant came in. Only that rather abortive campaign which is cast against him.

True but to be fair to Meade IIRC he needed to pull out lest Winter catch him on the wrong side of the Potomac.
 
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