WI: John Pym and/or John Hampden lives on



These two were the most important leaders of the Parliamentarians during the early phase of the English Civil War. In fact, they were the only ones who could provide united Parliamentary leadership. Parliament quickly split into different squabbling groups after their deaths.

IOTL, one died due to cancer, the other died in battle. What if one of them (more likely Hampden), or both survived 1643 and lived at least until 1654, or even beyond that?

How would that affect the politics of the Parliament and the general developments of England/Britain during the rest of the war and beyond? How would the handling of Charles I proceed?
 
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With Pym and Hampden both surviving until the early 1550s, the more moderate Parliamentarians will likely win out. Charles I probably keeps his head and is reinstalled as king, albeit with limited powers.
 
With Pym and Hampden both surviving until the early 1550s, the more moderate Parliamentarians will likely win out. Charles I probably keeps his head and is reinstalled as king, albeit with limited powers.
Well, if Charles stopped acting like an idiot and submitted to the will of the Parliament, he would be OK. His last chance was in 1647, when even Cromwell still wanted to make deal with him. Otherwise, Pym and Hampden would have to push the Parliament (unlike IOTL, their influence would steer the Parliament into actually voting for execution) into executing Charles or they themselves would be purged by the New Model Army.
 
Note that the reforms that led to the creation of the NMA IOTL were absolutely essential for any kind of Parliamentarian victory, so it would be the same as IOTL.
 
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As one member said in another thread, Charles I execution IOTL, whether it was unfair or not, gave the world an answer to the question that is "Can a king stand trial?".
 
I wonder what would happen next if a Pym/Hampden-led Long Parliament executed Charles I, avoided Pride's Purge and formed a different Commonwealth of England.
 
Eh, for the time, I don't think he was wrong, nowadays, perhaps he would be wrong.
Anyway, I am fairly confident that there would be no Restoration with Pym and Hampden surviving (and Charles still acting like IOTL). They might have even come up with less controversial way (IOTL execution made him a martyr) to remove Charles like sending him packing to Virginia (and well, perhaps Charles would never actually arrive at Virginia).
 
Anyway, I am fairly confident that there would be no Restoration with Pym and Hampden surviving (and Charles still acting like IOTL). They might have even come up with less controversial way (IOTL execution made him a martyr) to remove Charles like sending him packing to Virginia (and well, perhaps Charles would never actually arrive at Virginia).
I wouldn't be so sure about that, there's no guarantee that they don't do something so momentuously stupid that people start wanting the crown back
 
I wouldn't be so sure about that, there's no guarantee that they don't do something so momentuously stupid that people start wanting the crown back
Sure, I don't disregard that possibility, but still, the fundamentals would be clearly better than IOTL: whole Parliament with stronger legitimacy, more unified and competent Parliamentary leadership under Pym and/or Hampden, no crossing of Rubicon a.k.a Pride's Purge (at least for the time being) and government still under civilian rule.
 
Sure, I don't disregard that possibility, but still, the fundamentals would be clearly better than IOTL: whole Parliament with stronger legitimacy, more unified and competent Parliamentary leadership under Pym and/or Hampden, no crossing of Rubicon a.k.a Pride's Purge (at least for the time being) and government still under civilian rule.
Until one or both dies or gets power hungry
 
Anyway, I am fairly confident that there would be no Restoration with Pym and Hampden surviving (and Charles still acting like IOTL). They might have even come up with less controversial way (IOTL execution made him a martyr) to remove Charles like sending him packing to Virginia (and well, perhaps Charles would never actually arrive at Virginia).
They can't do that. Exiling Charles creates a focal point for opposition - you just know he would try a comeback, and no-one would believe the King had an accident.

There's also the problem that there's a monstrously powerful military force running around. Can Pym and Hampden fill the power vacuum? Not forever.
 
They can't do that. Exiling Charles creates a focal point for opposition - you just know he would try a comeback, and no-one would believe the King had an accident.
You can. The distance is huge and traveling to America was a big thing back then. Once you put him on a ship to Virginia (manned by NMA men of course), there would be plenty of options:
- Starve him to death on the ship (or Charles "hanging" himself in the cell because the condition is too unbearable).
- Sink the ship carrying Charles mid-way, and pretend that a storm happened.
- Actually send him to New England (where a bunch of pro-Republic Puritan mobs would be waiting for him ).
- Throw him off the ship.
- Abandon him in the wilderness, instead of bringing him to a settlement in the New World. He would either be starved, or killed/enslaved by hostile Native American tribes (they would not know about King Charles).

In other words, Charles would "disappear". The only problem is that this method would be kinda ahead of time. Using Orwellian means would be more effective than the blunt of approach of public execution that martyred him IOTL.

As for the Army, no Pride's Purge would have created a very different scenario with very different political situation and atmosphere. In addition, tit is very likely that John Pym would not be succeeded by someone with a Pym last name when he dies, most likely Hampden would succeed him if he remains alive by that time - and that would create a powerful precedence. Note that IOTL, the extent to which the NMA acted as a last resort and from exasperation over the Parliament's inability to recognize the futility in negotiating with Charles when taking over the government cannot be exaggerated.
 
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You can. The distance is huge and traveling to America was a big thing back then. Once you put him on a ship to Virginia (manned by NMA men of course), there would be plenty of options:
- Starve him to death on the ship (or Charles "hanging" himself in the cell because the condition is too unbearable).
- Sink the ship carrying Charles mid-way, and pretend that a storm happened.
- Actually send him to New England (where a bunch of pro-Republic Puritan mobs would be waiting for him ).
- Throw him off the ship.
- Abandon him in the wilderness, instead of bringing him to a settlement in the New World. He would either be starved, or killed/enslaved by hostile Native American tribes (they would not know about King Charles).

In other words, Charles would "disappear". The only problem is that this method would be kinda ahead of time. Using Orwellian means would be more effective than the blunt of approach of public execution that martyred him IOTL.

As for the Army, no Pride's Purge would have created a very different scenario with very different political situation and atmosphere. In addition, tit is very likely that John Pym would not be succeeded by someone with a Pym last name when he dies, most likely Hampden would succeed him if he remains alive by that time - and that would create a powerful precedence. Note that IOTL, the extent to which the NMA acted as a last resort and from exasperation over the Parliament's inability to recognize the futility in negotiating with Charles when taking over the government cannot be exaggerated.
You think people in England, Scotland or Ireland are going to react well when they hear about this? If so, I have a house in Timbuktu to sell you.
 
You think people in England, Scotland or Ireland are going to react well when they hear about this? If so, I have a house in Timbuktu to sell you.
I am quite confident that it would not be worse than the way they reacted to his fucking public execution IOTL. They would not even know what happened.
 
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