WI John Paul Jones became our first admiral?

bard32

Banned
WI John Paul Jones, the Father of the Navy, became our first admiral? It almost happened. John Paul Jones, born John Paul in 1747, was the captain of
a merchant ship back in 1763. At this time, his crew had mutinied. His first mate threw in his lot with the mutineers, while they were in Trinidad. This,
according to my only source on John Paul Jones, a children's biography of him
called John Paul Jones Fighting Sailor. My mother has a book on Ships of
the American Revolution, and John Paul Jones, who was the captain of the
Ranger, and other ships, including the Bonhomme Richard, was
recalled to the United States in 1777, to command a 74-gun ship-of-the-line
named America, which was being built at time, but was delayed because
of a lack of supplies.
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Monthly Donor
His being named Admiral in the UNITED STATES NAVY is, frankly, impossible. Jones DIED in 1792 and the Congress of the United States refused to approve the rank of Admiral until 1862 (Jones would have been 115 year old at the time).

The law that established the USN specifically forebade the rank of Admiral; Congress being of the opinion that it was an aristocratic title not a military one. Until 1857 the highest permanent rank in the USN was Captain (temporary rank of Commodore was approved for squadron commanders), when the permanent grade of Flag Officer was established. Actual permanent pay grade/rank of Admiral had to wait until the Civil War (when, it must be added, the USN actually grew large enough to justify the rank).

Once again, how hard is it to do just the smallest amount of basic research?
 
WI John Paul Jones, the Father of the Navy, became our first admiral? It almost happened. John Paul Jones, born John Paul in 1747, was the captain of
a merchant ship back in 1763. At this time, his crew had mutinied. His first mate threw in his lot with the mutineers, while they were in Trinidad. This,
according to my only source on John Paul Jones, a children's biography of him
called John Paul Jones Fighting Sailor. My mother has a book on Ships of
the American Revolution, and John Paul Jones, who was the captain of the
Ranger, and other ships, including the Bonhomme Richard, was
recalled to the United States in 1777, to command a 74-gun ship-of-the-line
named America, which was being built at time, but was delayed because
of a lack of supplies.

This would be so funny if... well... honestly...

A Childrens Book? I would hope you would have something more substantial then that as the premise of an AH. Honestly, about half the time I'd prefer wikipedia (depends on the article and the childrens book...). And if each of these threads is going to be flooded with information, can you at least give us some that is relavent (not stuff about mutinees decades before the POD)?

Okay. Let's get some facts straight. No Admirals until 1862 in the USN. USN did not exist from 1784-94 (makes it hard to be an admiral), and it did not reach the point where there was any point to having an admiral for years. America was given to the french as a gift. And making Jones an admiral has no effect on history. Next?
 
I am not, never have been nor ever will be a Yankeestani!

Jones was lucky that he wasn't hanged for murder while in Trinidad. BTW, he's not the "father" of anyone's navy.
 
Well he does go to Russia and help Catherine the Great rebuild the Russia Navy.

First, meant to say "Well he does NOT go to Russia ..."

Now a full response....

As others have posted you need a considerible POD. Leadership in the colonies/ United States was very anti-Navy, and the title/rank Admiral had a bad taste (but not General...). As posted it took until 1862, and the Civil War to create the first Rear Admirals, Vice and (full, 4 star) Admiral didnot get created till the late 19 teens, ADM of the FLEET Dewey was the one and only and the was reation to one Victory. (the Great White Fleet went around the world commanded by Rear Admirals).

So your POD would have be something major that causes American leadership to first accept the need for a large standing Navy and be willing to pay the cost during a war where winning or losing is going to be decided on land (yes, I'm aware of the Battle of the VA Capes, but did win war only made winning possible). AND then be willing to give it to CAPT J.P. Jones (who is not the father or the US Navy or even the Continential Navy), and who never had good relation with anyone in leadersip, expect maybe Franklin.

Or your POD would need to be the Congress being convinced to give a largely ceremonial title/rank to Jones and Barry (see below) as a reward, most likely with a promise from both to retire.

So it's very unlike you can get to a pausible ADM Jones at least in the US Navy.

Note; even with the beloved Army is was 1864 before the 2nd LT GEN was created (Grant). Till WW1 the US didn't like giving "Old World" rank to the military, it wasn't "democratic."

The Real Father of the First US Navy, http://www.ushistory.org/people/commodorebarry.htm
 

bard32

Banned
Well he does go to Russia and help Catherine the Great rebuild the Russia Navy.

True. However, he was court-martialled by the Russian Navy. There's a series
of novels about John Paul Jones. It's actually a trilogy by Nicholas Nicastro.
The first book is The Eighteenth Captain, and I forget the name of the second
book.
 

bard32

Banned
First, meant to say "Well he does NOT go to Russia ..."

Now a full response....

As others have posted you need a considerible POD. Leadership in the colonies/ United States was very anti-Navy, and the title/rank Admiral had a bad taste (but not General...). As posted it took until 1862, and the Civil War to create the first Rear Admirals, Vice and (full, 4 star) Admiral didnot get created till the late 19 teens, ADM of the FLEET Dewey was the one and only and the was reation to one Victory. (the Great White Fleet went around the world commanded by Rear Admirals).

So your POD would have be something major that causes American leadership to first accept the need for a large standing Navy and be willing to pay the cost during a war where winning or losing is going to be decided on land (yes, I'm aware of the Battle of the VA Capes, but did win war only made winning possible). AND then be willing to give it to CAPT J.P. Jones (who is not the father or the US Navy or even the Continential Navy), and who never had good relation with anyone in leadersip, expect maybe Franklin.

Or your POD would need to be the Congress being convinced to give a largely ceremonial title/rank to Jones and Barry (see below) as a reward, most likely with a promise from both to retire.

So it's very unlike you can get to a pausible ADM Jones at least in the US Navy.

Note; even with the beloved Army is was 1864 before the 2nd LT GEN was created (Grant). Till WW1 the US didn't like giving "Old World" rank to the military, it wasn't "democratic."

The Real Father of the First US Navy, http://www.ushistory.org/people/commodorebarry.htm

John Paul Jones also proposed the idea of a naval academy. The Federalists
were pro-Navy when the Constitution was finally adopted. The Democratic-
Republicans, on the other hand, were anti-Navy. Jefferson and Gallatin were
especially anti-Navy. However, it was under Jefferson that Maine's Edward
Preble, a Federalist, served in the Navy as the commander of the USS Constitution.
 

bard32

Banned
I am not, never have been nor ever will be a Yankeestani!

Jones was lucky that he wasn't hanged for murder while in Trinidad. BTW, he's not the "father" of anyone's navy.

It stemmed from the flogging death of a crewman a few years earlier. That,
and the fact the crew of the Betsey, hadn't been paid because in those
days, the crew wasn't paid until all the cargo had been offloaded in the port
of origin, which in John Paul Jones' day was Whitehaven, England. Back then,
it was third busiest port in the world. The judge was the one who told him to
change his name.
 

bard32

Banned
His being named Admiral in the UNITED STATES NAVY is, frankly, impossible. Jones DIED in 1792 and the Congress of the United States refused to approve the rank of Admiral until 1862 (Jones would have been 115 year old at the time).

The law that established the USN specifically forebade the rank of Admiral; Congress being of the opinion that it was an aristocratic title not a military one. Until 1857 the highest permanent rank in the USN was Captain (temporary rank of Commodore was approved for squadron commanders), when the permanent grade of Flag Officer was established. Actual permanent pay grade/rank of Admiral had to wait until the Civil War (when, it must be added, the USN actually grew large enough to justify the rank).

Once again, how hard is it to do just the smallest amount of basic research?

I know that. I read it in a book about ships of the American Revolution. That's what it said. John Paul Jones was going to be given command of the 74-gun America in 1777 and promoted to the rank of admiral but he was passed over because the America was five years behind schedule.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
I know that. I read it in a book about ships of the American Revolution. That's what it said. John Paul Jones was going to be given command of the 74-gun America in 1777 and promoted to the rank of admiral but he was passed over because the America was five years behind schedule.

You know what?

That the UNITED STATES CONGRESS specifically forbade the rank of Admiral?

Or that Jones was still, somehow, going to be made an Admiral in the USN, depsite the fact that the rank did not exist?

Or that you read a book?
 
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