WI: John Lackland inherits Savoy?

Zioneer

Banned
In OTL John, youngest of the sons of Henry Plantagenet, didn't get any inheritance, and was supposed to marry Alais of Savoy to extend Angevin control beyond the Alps. Unfortunately for Angevin ambitions, Alais died before being married. But what if she survived, and bore John a son (or two or whatever)? What would be the immediate effect on Italian-Angevin relations, the geopolitical implications, and so forth?

I don't know much about this era, but I can see one obvious effect; John is slightly less antagonistic towards his brother Richard, having a domain of his own. Perhaps he could even provide Richard with ships and equipment for the Lionheart's crusade?
 
If Savoy is inherited by John Lackland, the county of Toulouse is surrounded by the Angevin Empire and separated from mainland France. I don't know how good the relationship were between count Raymond V and King Philipp II, but the count could be tempted by independance or alliance with the Angevins.

However, King Philipp II Augustus, the man who destroyed the Angevin Empire in OTL, is not likely to let the Plantagenest strengthen their position. I think he is likely to still play his tactic of turning the Plantagenets against each other : first Henry II against his sons then John against Richard.

Besides, even if John inherits Savoy, Savoy is nothing compared to the crown of England, which bring all the Angevin Empire in its fold. Not to mention that once Philipp II starts battling against Richard then later John (if things go OTL), Savoy will be fastly cut from the rest of the Angevin Empire. I doubt John won't rebel against his brother, especially if Philipp II of France is around.
 
This fabulous thing about the Angevins, as I have always seen it, is the extent to which politics and entire countries shifted about their personalities.

If Lackland marries Alais he may avoid clashing with Richard over Aquitaine and if he does become co-ruler of Savoy, probably in 1189 (I don't see why Humbert should die at a different age) he may be tied up enough to be unable to attempt to overthrow Longchamp which, along with not messing up Ireland would take away some of his bad PR.

The real issue is, as has been said, what Richard and Phillip do. Richard, egged on by mummy will still rebel against Henry and has even more reason to believe that Henry is making Johnny boy his favourite, having arranged him so important a marriage and John having had fewer opportunities to prove his incompetence. If anything I think Richard is likely to try and push John even further out of the family realms, particularly as John may be able to bring Savoyard support to Henry at his OTL end.

Phillip will be even more willing to strike against the Angevins, though John may be less wiling to ally himself with him and I think possibly may turn to Toulouse if the ageing Raymond V can wheedle himself a good deal, his son of course is likely to be too preoccupied with the Cathar issue to engage in this and was inclined to middle courses anyhow. Eventually Phillip will turn against whichever of the scheming brood he is currently in bed with, if its Richard he can't count on John and history depends on whether he ducks or not, if John, then the Angevin realms are almost certainly doomed.
 

Susano

Banned
Uh, was the House of Savoy so devoid of male heirs that this marriage would mean John inheriting the county? Looking at Wikipedia, Humbert III did eventually produce a son, the later Thomas I. And even if he is killed by way of secondary PoD/convinient butterfly effect, what about Humbert's brothers? Did they still live? Did they have issue?
 
As far as I can tell Humbert was the only remaining male representative of the male lineage of Savoy before the birth of his son. Hence, he promised John the succession upon marriage of his daughter.

By the way, I started a thread on this a year ago. Could be useful to look at.
 
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