WI: Joan of France, Duchess of Berry had born a son for Louis XII

[Shiva]

WI: Joan of France, Duchess of Berry (also known as St. Joan of Valois) had managed to bear her husband, the future Louis XII a healthy, living son prior to his ascension to the French throne after his brothers death?

Would he still try to annul their marriage to force Anne of Brittany to marry him? And if he did would it affect his eldest son's rights to the French Throne? And what of the boy himself, what would he be like with such a militant father and a devout (but deformed) mother?

 

[VVD0D95]

WI: Joan of France, Duchess of Berry (also known as St. Joan of Valois) had managed to bear her husband, the future Louis XII a healthy, living son prior to his ascension to the French throne after his brothers death?

Would he still try to annul their marriage to force Anne of Brittany to marry him? And if he did would it affect his eldest son's rights to the French Throne? And what of the boy himself, what would he be like with such a militant father and a devout (but deformed) mother?

I'm not sure if he would seek to annul his marriage to Joan if they have a son together, but if he does, I do not see the divorce affecting his rights to the throne.

 

[Shiva]

I'm not sure if he would seek to annul his marriage to Joan if they have a son together, but if he does, I do not see the divorce affecting his rights to the throne.

If he doesn't then France will lose control of Brittany, so that would free up Anne of Brittany to marry to try and retain the independence of her Duchy.

If he does go through the annulment/divorce then he runs into a possible fight between his son by Joan, and the children he'll have with Anne of Brittany, or if he winds up with a third wife like he did in RL.

 

[VVD0D95]

If he doesn't then France will lose control of Brittany, so that would free up Anne of Brittany to marry to try and retain the independence of her Duchy.

If he does go through the annulment/divorce then he runs into a possible fight between his son by Joan, and the children he'll have with Anne of Brittany, or if he winds up with a third wife like he did in RL.

Hmm aye, though would the fight be over Brittany going independent again under his second son?

 

[Shiva]

Hmm aye, though would the fight be over Brittany going independent again under his second son?

Oh yeah, even if there were some weasely way to officially keep Brittany part of France with the second son (let's call him Louis, Duke of Brittany) as a vassal to his brother (I'm going with Charles IX, named after the father of Louis XII), there'd be all sorts of cloak and daggers since Louis, Duke of Brittany would be his brother direct heir (if Charles IX has yet to have sons).

I suspect that even if Louis XII doesn't annul his marriage, he'd still try to find a way to keep Brittany linked to France, maybe he could have Anne marry one of his high-ranking vassals... If she hasn't already gotten a new marriage with someone willing to fight for her interests.

And if (unlike in RL) Louis XII marries Mary Tudor (the sister of Henry VIII) and she gives him even one son, that boy (or his line) could cause all sorts of chaos for the English succession.

 

[VVD0D95]

Oh yeah, even if there were some weasely way to officially keep Brittany part of France with the second son (let's call him Louis, Duke of Brittany) as a vassal to his brother (I'm going with Charles IX, named after the father of Louis XII), there'd be all sorts of cloak and daggers since Louis, Duke of Brittany would be his brother direct heir (if Charles IX has yet to have sons).

I suspect that even if Louis XII doesn't annul his marriage, he'd still try to find a way to keep Brittany linked to France, maybe he could have Anne marry one of his high-ranking vassals... If she hasn't already gotten a new marriage with someone willing to fight for her interests.

And if (unlike in RL) Louis XII marries Mary Tudor (the sister of Henry VIII) and she gives him even one son, that boy (or his line) could cause all sorts of chaos for the English succession.

Oh very interesting, how likely is it that Louis does divorce Joan if she gives him a son? Otl, did he divorce her because he didn't want to marry her anyway, or because she hadn't given him a son?

 

[Shiva]

Oh very interesting, how likely is it that Louis does divorce Joan if she gives him a son? Otl, did he divorce her because he didn't want to marry her anyway, or because she hadn't given him a son?

It was both, she had a REALLY bad hunchback and this kid would be seen as a miracle since it's assumed that Joan was sterile, since Louis XII had a lot of pregnancies with Anne of Brittany (even if a lot of those children died young or were stillborn).

But if he manages a son on Joan, I think the butterflies would be enough for him to father a few more viable ones on other women. But the problem is that an annulment like this could mess with the succession... Maybe Louis could gamble on convincing Joan to 'retire' from her marriage to a convent, she was devout enough once she did go to the cloistered life in RL to earn Sainthood.

 

[VVD0D95]

It was both, she had a REALLY bad hunchback and this kid would be seen as a miracle since it's assumed that Joan was sterile, since Louis XII had a lot of pregnancies with Anne of Brittany (even if a lot of those children died young or were stillborn).

But if he manages a son on Joan, I think the butterflies would be enough for him to father a few more viable ones on other women. But the problem is that an annulment like this could mess with the succession... Maybe Louis could gamble on convincing Joan to 'retire' from her marriage to a convent, she was devout enough once she did go to the cloistered life in RL to earn Sainthood.

Hmm interesting, what makes you think it would mess with the succession?

 

[yourworstnightmare]

The whole point with the Breton marriage was to a) make sure the Breton lands were efficiently tied to france and b) not to anyone else. If Louis XII already has a son this becomes somewhat harder, since any children with Anne would be heirs to Britanny. There's also the problem of annulling a marriage if there is a child (for obvious reasons), and Joan fought the annulment quite fiercely. If she had a son who was heir of France I just can't see the annulment being possible.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Stupid question, but I feel it's relevant: Instead of Louis divorcing Jeanne to marry Anne, why not just marry their son to Anne? The marriage treaty stated Anne was to marry the next king of France (assuming he was available), if he's not, marriage to his son and heir sorta makes sense. He married Jeanne in '76 when she was twelve, her sister had her first kid when she was 14, which means that assuming we've handwaved Jeanne's extreme deformities away, the son, let's call him Charles, is born before 1480, and is reasonably close to Anne. Then when Jeanne kicks in 150x, Louis can remarry if he so chooses.

 

[Shiva]

Stupid question, but I feel it's relevant: Instead of Louis divorcing Jeanne to marry Anne, why not just marry their son to Anne? The marriage treaty stated Anne was to marry the next king of France (assuming he was available), if he's not, marriage to his son and heir sorta makes sense. He married Jeanne in '76 when she was twelve, her sister had her first kid when she was 14, which means that assuming we've handwaved Jeanne's extreme deformities away, the son, let's call him Charles, is born before 1480, and is reasonably close to Anne. Then when Jeanne kicks in 150x, Louis can remarry if he so chooses.

That depends on how old the Dauphin would be, though a forced betrothal isn't out of the question.