WI: Jim Jones goes to the Soviet Union

[Johannes Parisiensis]

In 1978, Rev. Jones planned to send his little cult in various Communist countries such as the Soviet Union, North Korea or Albania.

However, the Port Kaituma airstrip shootings against Rep. Ryan and his party led to the Jonestown lass suicide.

Let's say Larry Layton and/or Don Sly fell ill that day, or any other POD preventing the mass suicide.

What would be the effects of this migration..

1. ..on the receiving countries?
2. ..on the debate on cults, which debuted with the Children of God?
3. ..on the career of the People's Temple protectors?

 

[Mike Stearns]

North Korea is already a cult. Does anyone even notice?

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

North Korea is already a cult. Does anyone even notice?

Did the Kims ever wanted to have in their country a concurrent in the personnality cult sector?

 

[Deleted member 14881]

If Jim Jones goes to the USSR wouldn't they get arrested if they preached to the Soviets?

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Sounds like an excellent way for Jones and his group to end up in a camp system.

 

[overoceans]

I actually know a few Moscow-oriented Communists who claim that the Jonestown Massacre was carried out by the CIA, because that many Amercians defecting to the USSR would have been too much of a p.r. bonanza for the Soviets.

"You're impressed by those losers jumping over the Berlin Wall? Hah! A thousand Americans just came over to OUR side!!!"

So, in the ATL, yeah, you could look for Soviet propaganda to crow about the defection, at least in public. And especially from groups like the CPUSA and other Moscow-loyal parties.

Meanwhile, back in San Francisco, George Moscone will be red-baited mercilessly. If the lack of a massacre somehow manages to butterfly away his assassination(because Dan White won't be so stressed out or something), he'll be known as the mayor who appointed a KGB agent to the city housing committee(hyperbole, but it's not like red-baiting is rational). Not much of a future in politics, though it is debatable how much future he would have had post-massacre in a timeline where he lives.

Over in Russia, Jones will be kept in relatively high style, and agree not to preach Christianity to the masses, but annoy the Soviets with his incessant demands to have women sent to his apartment. I don't know what sort of life his followers would have, I'm guessing not too lavish. Many of them would want to return to the US, I'm guessing. Not sure how that would work out.

And the phrase "drink the kool-aid" would never enter the political vocabulary(unless, as wiki says, it is possibly derived from the Merry Pranksters, which I find doubtful. )

 

[overoceans]

Oh, and contra my Communist friends, the defection wouldn't do much to improve the USSR's image in the west, since most people would view the defectors as a bunch of losers brainwashed by Jones, not as rational thinkers who each independently saw the advantages of Soviet Communism. If any of them successfully managed to return to the US, they'd be treated as laughingstocks("Hey, shouldn't you be back in the socialist paradise? Ha ha!!)

 

[overoceans]

Did the Kims ever wanted to have in their country a concurrent in the personnality cult sector?

By all accounts, the North Koreans keep incoming defectors on a VERY tight leash(see the recollections of Charles Robert Jenkins, for example). It is debatable how well the Jones Gang, with its collection of hippies, Jesus Freaks, ghetto kids, and all around misfits, would adjust to life up there.

And remember, we're talking of around a THOUSAND people.

 

[GeographyDude]

. . . with its collection of hippies, Jesus Freaks, ghetto kids, and all around misfits, . .

These are the kind of people I like!

It's a shame that Jones went kind of both kooky and control nut. Maybe if he had been only one or the other.

BEST CASE SCENARIO: Jim Jones lightens up and doesn't insist people get the doctrine just right. He's still learning himself for crying out loud.

REALLY BEST CASE SCENARIO: The presence of close to a thousand Jesus Freaks, ghetto kids, and all around misfits helps the People's Republic of Korea to lighten up, too. I mean, one can dream, right?

PS It might be dating myself, but this happened when I was in high school. It really was quite a tragedy.

 

[RousseauX]

By all accounts, the North Koreans keep incoming defectors on a VERY tight leash(see the recollections of Charles Robert Jenkins, for example). It is debatable how well the Jones Gang, with its collection of hippies, Jesus Freaks, ghetto kids, and all around misfits, would adjust to life up there.

And remember, we're talking of around a THOUSAND people.

You realize Jonestown was mostly poor black people right?

 

[overoceans]

You realize Jonestown was mostly poor black people right?

Yeah, I knew there were a lot of them represented(hence my reference to "ghetto kids"). I wasn't sure of the overall demographics, though.

In any case, I doubt a group of mostly poor black people would be especially popular in NK.

 

[Ultimate Paragon]

Yeah, I knew there were a lot of them represented(hence my reference to "ghetto kids"). I wasn't sure of the overall demographics, though.

In any case, I doubt a group of mostly poor black people would be especially popular in NK.

Exactly. North Korea seems to have a special hatred of black people.

 

[overoceans]

Exactly. North Korea seems to have a special hatred of black people.

Yes. They inveigh against racial mixing in their propaganda.

North Korea on Hines Ward

I'm not sure, but I'm guessing North Korea is the only Communist country that officially adopted European-derived racial theories as part of its governing ideology. I believe the Japanese were preaching that stuff during the colonial period, and both North and South kept it going after liberation.

 

[overoceans]

Geography Dude wrote:

PS It might be dating myself, but this happened when I was in high school. It really was quite a tragedy.

Yeah, I had just turned ten, and was a little confused about what exactly a cult was.

Though I think there was a bit of talk about the Moonies in the early 70s, I think cults as a major news item really got going with Jonestown. After that, they never seemed to be far from the front page, and were featured regularly in TV dramas, etc.

For a while, so-called deprogrammers seemed to be striving for the same status as law-enforcement agents: in the media, it was portrayed as a totally respectable line of work, forcing people into cars and locking them in basements for days on end. Then, I think some of them got charged with abduction, and their days of glory came to an end.

 

[Ultimate Paragon]

Geography Dude wrote:

PS It might be dating myself, but this happened when I was in high school. It really was quite a tragedy.

Yeah, I had just turned ten, and was a little confused about what exactly a cult was.

Though I think there was a bit of talk about the Moonies in the early 70s, I think cults as a major news item really got going with Jonestown. After that, they never seemed to be far from the front page, and were featured regularly in TV dramas, etc.

For a while, so-called deprogrammers seemed to be striving for the same status as law-enforcement agents: in the media, it was portrayed as a totally respectable line of work, forcing people into cars and locking them in basements for days on end. Then, I think some of them got charged with abduction, and their days of glory came to an end.

Me, I was born in 1979. And I'd always figured the fascination with cults started with the Manson Family.

 

[overoceans]

Me, I was born in 1979. And I'd always figured the fascination with cults started with the Manson Family.

I dunno. I'm not sure if too many people were worried that groups the size of the Manson family(who weren't really into mass recruiting) were going to come and seduce their children away. I think they were more just seen as one example of how youth were going to hell in a handbasket generally.

But I'd be interested to hear what others have to say. I only started hearing about cults with Jonestown, but then, I wasn't really following the news before that.

 

[Dave Howery]

"You're impressed by those losers jumping over the Berlin Wall? Hah! A thousand Americans just came over to OUR side!!!"

and when the Americans realized just who those people were, we'd laugh and say 'sure, take all the weird cultists you like! Want a few thousand more?"

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

Exactly. North Korea seems to have a special hatred of black people.

Yes. They inveigh against racial mixing in their propaganda.

So it bodes wery bad about the People's Temple crowd?

I dunno. I'm not sure if too many people were worried that groups the size of the Manson family(who weren't really into mass recruiting) were going to come and seduce their children away. I think they were more just seen as one example of how youth were going to hell in a handbasket generally.

But I'd be interested to hear what others have to say. I only started hearing about cults with Jonestown, but then, I wasn't really following the news before that.

As I said in the OP, the Children of God cult was enough worrying to the public the New York Attorney General felt obligated to make a report.

 

[overoceans]

So it bodes wery bad about the People's Temple crowd?

Well, I would think so. If Jones' personal practices were anything to go by, the Peoples Temple were not averse to racially mixed relationships. So I'm guessing that that, in tandem with the sheer number of black people who would be moving in at one time, would make the North Koreans quite wary about hosting a mass defection.

re: the Children Of God. You may very well be correct. But would you say it's the case that, had someone in 1974 said "David Berg" to the average American(who let's assume had never heard of the Mad cartoonist), it would garner the same sort of name recognition that "Reverend Moon" would have gotten in 1981?

 

[U.S David]

This would be great.....

Soviet Union wants a propaganda victory. They let the group in, kill Jones, and sends the people back to the US.

Not before filming the people for thanking the soviets for freeing them.

What do you guys think?