WI: JFK’s older brother doesn’t die in WWII

it’s my understanding that jfk’s older brother was originally the one their dad wanted to be president, but then he died in WWII. What if he had lived?
 
. . . & succeeded or failed with his father money and his own skill.
And then it’s a lot like the World Series of Poker, in that there’s a lot more ways to lose the thing than win it! :openedeyewink:

I’d almost rather read a snappy timeline in which Joe, Jr. is a long-time member of the House, an effective committee chair, etc.
 
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William G. Carleton (1901-1982), a University of Florida historian and political scientist (and occasional speechwriter for Joseph Kennedy, Sr.) expressed some doubt that Joe, Jr. would ever have become president: "If Joe, Jr. had lived, John would not have gone into politics at all. This is not to say that Joe, Jr. would have 'made the grade' in high politics, as believers in the Kennedy magic now assume. Joe, Jr. was an extrovert; he was obviously the politcal 'type'. John's mind was more penetrating and dispassionate, and he did not fit the stereotype of the politician, particularly the Irish politician. What endeared John to the status-seeking minorities was that he appeared more the scion of an old aristocratic Yankee family than the authentic scions themselves. Had Joe, Jr. lived, the Kennedy family in all probability would never have had a President at all. (In part, this evaluaton of Joe, Jr. and John is derived from personal observation. I recall vividly an evening, April 4, 1941, when I was a guest at the Kennedy home in Palm Beach. Following dinner, the entire family, including the younger children, assembled in the drawing-room for a discussion of public affairs...Mr. Kennedy, John, and I were the chief participants, although Mrs. Kennedy and Joe, Jr. often broke in with comments. It was clear to me that John had a far better historical and political mind than his father or his elder brother; indeed, that John's capacity for seeing current events in historical perspective and projecting historical trends into the future was unusual...)"

https://books.google.com/books?id=nrFlAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA203

The fact that Jack was more bookish (no doubt illness gave him more time to read) and Joe, Jr. more extroverted and closer to the stereotype of the Irish politician may explain why Jack appealed more than Joe, Jr. ever could to intellectuals like Carleton, but it hardly proves that Joe would have been less attractive to the electorate as a whole. I think one reason for Carleton's admiration for Jack is that Jack, unlike Joe, Jr., was edging away from his father's isolationism at an early stage. Yet Joe, Jr.too might eventually have disassociated himself from some of his father's more controversial positions had he lived. Joe, Jr. might have been tempted, for example, if he were elected to the Senate, to oppose the censure of Joe McCarthy (a hero both to his father and to many of his Boston Irish constituents) but he would have to realize that this would wreck his chance of getting the Democratic presidential nomination. (Jack of course managed to avoid the vote due to back surgery, an option which presumably would not be available to Joe...) If Robert F. Kennedy could morph from a McCarthy aide to a liberal Senator from New York, one should not assume Joe, Jr. woud always retain his America-First politics of the early 1940's.

Of course, even if one assumes that Joe, Jr. would be ideologically acceptable to Democrats in 1960, it doesn't necessarily follow that he would have won the presidency. JFK once remarked that Joe, unlike him, would have succeeded in becoming Stevenson's running mate in 1956. But then, JFK added, Ike-Nixon would have overwhelmingly defeated Stevenson-Kennedy--"And today Joe's political career would be in shambles..." http://books.google.com/books?id=nsOlkJ7yVhMC&pg=PA182
 
William G. Carleton (1901-1982), a University of Florida historian and political scientist (and occasional speechwriter for Joseph Kennedy, Sr.) expressed some doubt that Joe, Jr. would ever have become president: "If Joe, Jr. had lived, John would not have gone into politics at all. This is not to say that Joe, Jr. would have 'made the grade' in high politics, as believers in the Kennedy magic now assume. Joe, Jr. was an extrovert; he was obviously the politcal 'type'. John's mind was more penetrating and dispassionate, and he did not fit the stereotype of the politician, particularly the Irish politician. What endeared John to the status-seeking minorities was that he appeared more the scion of an old aristocratic Yankee family than the authentic scions themselves. Had Joe, Jr. lived, the Kennedy family in all probability would never have had a President at all. (In part, this evaluaton of Joe, Jr. and John is derived from personal observation. I recall vividly an evening, April 4, 1941, when I was a guest at the Kennedy home in Palm Beach. Following dinner, the entire family, including the younger children, assembled in the drawing-room for a discussion of public affairs...Mr. Kennedy, John, and I were the chief participants, although Mrs. Kennedy and Joe, Jr. often broke in with comments. It was clear to me that John had a far better historical and political mind than his father or his elder brother; indeed, that John's capacity for seeing current events in historical perspective and projecting historical trends into the future was unusual...)"

https://books.google.com/books?id=nrFlAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA203

The fact that Jack was more bookish (no doubt illness gave him more time to read) and Joe, Jr. more extroverted and closer to the stereotype of the Irish politician may explain why Jack appealed more than Joe, Jr. ever could to intellectuals like Carleton, but it hardly proves that Joe would have been less attractive to the electorate as a whole. I think one reason for Carleton's admiration for Jack is that Jack, unlike Joe, Jr., was edging away from his father's isolationism at an early stage. Yet Joe, Jr.too might eventually have disassociated himself from some of his father's more controversial positions had he lived. Joe, Jr. might have been tempted, for example, if he were elected to the Senate, to oppose the censure of Joe McCarthy (a hero both to his father and to many of his Boston Irish constituents) but he would have to realize that this would wreck his chance of getting the Democratic presidential nomination. (Jack of course managed to avoid the vote due to back surgery, an option which presumably would not be available to Joe...) If Robert F. Kennedy could morph from a McCarthy aide to a liberal Senator from New York, one should not assume Joe, Jr. woud always retain his America-First politics of the early 1940's.

Of course, even if one assumes that Joe, Jr. would be ideologically acceptable to Democrats in 1960, it doesn't necessarily follow that he would have won the presidency. JFK once remarked that Joe, unlike him, would have succeeded in becoming Stevenson's running mate in 1956. But then, JFK added, Ike-Nixon would have overwhelmingly defeated Stevenson-Kennedy--"And today Joe's political career would be in shambles..." http://books.google.com/books?id=nsOlkJ7yVhMC&pg=PA182

Would the public perception of Joe Jr be any different from that of JFK? In a close race, anything can change the outcome. If Joe Jr isn't seen to have as strong a grasp on the issues as JFK, or if can't hold his own against Nixon in the debates, then he probably loses.
 
William G. Carleton (1901-1982), a University of Florida historian and political scientist (and occasional speechwriter for Joseph Kennedy, Sr.) expressed some doubt that Joe, Jr. would ever have become president: "If Joe, Jr. had lived, John would not have gone into politics at all. This is not to say that Joe, Jr. would have 'made the grade' in high politics, as believers in the Kennedy magic now assume. Joe, Jr. was an extrovert; he was obviously the politcal 'type'. John's mind was more penetrating and dispassionate, and he did not fit the stereotype of the politician, particularly the Irish politician. What endeared John to the status-seeking minorities was that he appeared more the scion of an old aristocratic Yankee family than the authentic scions themselves. Had Joe, Jr. lived, the Kennedy family in all probability would never have had a President at all. (In part, this evaluaton of Joe, Jr. and John is derived from personal observation. I recall vividly an evening, April 4, 1941, when I was a guest at the Kennedy home in Palm Beach. Following dinner, the entire family, including the younger children, assembled in the drawing-room for a discussion of public affairs...Mr. Kennedy, John, and I were the chief participants, although Mrs. Kennedy and Joe, Jr. often broke in with comments. It was clear to me that John had a far better historical and political mind than his father or his elder brother; indeed, that John's capacity for seeing current events in historical perspective and projecting historical trends into the future was unusual...)"

https://books.google.com/books?id=nrFlAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA203

The fact that Jack was more bookish (no doubt illness gave him more time to read) and Joe, Jr. more extroverted and closer to the stereotype of the Irish politician may explain why Jack appealed more than Joe, Jr. ever could to intellectuals like Carleton, but it hardly proves that Joe would have been less attractive to the electorate as a whole. I think one reason for Carleton's admiration for Jack is that Jack, unlike Joe, Jr., was edging away from his father's isolationism at an early stage. Yet Joe, Jr.too might eventually have disassociated himself from some of his father's more controversial positions had he lived. Joe, Jr. might have been tempted, for example, if he were elected to the Senate, to oppose the censure of Joe McCarthy (a hero both to his father and to many of his Boston Irish constituents) but he would have to realize that this would wreck his chance of getting the Democratic presidential nomination. (Jack of course managed to avoid the vote due to back surgery, an option which presumably would not be available to Joe...) If Robert F. Kennedy could morph from a McCarthy aide to a liberal Senator from New York, one should not assume Joe, Jr. woud always retain his America-First politics of the early 1940's.

Of course, even if one assumes that Joe, Jr. would be ideologically acceptable to Democrats in 1960, it doesn't necessarily follow that he would have won the presidency. JFK once remarked that Joe, unlike him, would have succeeded in becoming Stevenson's running mate in 1956. But then, JFK added, Ike-Nixon would have overwhelmingly defeated Stevenson-Kennedy--"And today Joe's political career would be in shambles..." http://books.google.com/books?id=nsOlkJ7yVhMC&pg=PA182

I've reviewed their WW II histories and service records. Joe Junior was too much like Joe Senior to my tastes. He was a bundle of prejudices, superficialities and understandings with no life compelling experience that digs at the root of a human being and shows the metal under the patina. When he blew himself up in a glory seeking mission to one up his younger brother, John, that defines Joe Jr. for me. John never went looking for glory. He just went about his duty quietly until the fortunes of war forced him to show what he truly was deep down. PT 109, the result of battle chaos, plainly unlooked for, clearly and definitively, at least to me, illustrates who the better man as a leader and as a man was among the Kennedys when a crisis hit. It also shows who put his heart, will and soul into rescuing those who were entrusted in his care as well as his dedication to the mission he has/had. The Americans were LUCKY to get JFK as President.
 
If the mission that Joe Jr was killed was successful and he survived he most likely would have been awarded the Medal of Honor and that would have gone a long way in overcoming his Father's isolationism.
In 1946 OTL JFK had the choice of two races, the LT Governor of Massachusetts or the 11th Congressional District, and he chose the Congressional race.
But if Joe Jr went for the Lt. Governor race he would have gone up against Arthur W. Coolidge who was the Fourth cousin of Calvin and his granddaughter is Martha Coolidge the film director, Coolidge won by over 7000 votes and with his family money Joe Jr could have overcome that and won.
Joe Jr with having statewide exposure can then run in the 1948 Senate against the Republican incumbent Leverett Saltonstall and in a Democratic year he could have won.
 
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