WI Jews and Roma/gypsies switched places?

Right, the key point is that custom doesn't extend into sectarian divide in these cases. In any case, re: the discussion, I think having specific areas with reasonably large concentrations of Roma could help-maybe someone specifically invites Roma to take residence in their territories? The pressure to settle is going to be hard to do anything about but I'm open to ideas.
 
I don't really know that this is possible. Consider also the effect of Jewish trading community contacts further east, the so-called Radhanites....
 
These are two pan-European ethnic groups originating in part in the Middle East and Asia that were in medieval and early modern times associated with small business - moneylending for the Jews and smithing and traveling sales for the Roma. Let's say that for certain reasons (the Catholic Church stamps out Jewish moneylending by making their own bank and justifying interest by investing it in Church causes, while the Roma are able to form retail and trading guilds, for instance) the Jews remain outcasts while the Gypsies become prosperous merchants and industrialists. Do you still see a Zionist movement, and conversely do you see a Roma "Zionism" towards Northern India?

There would have to be way more changes in the Roma than forming guilds etc... in order for them to switch places with the Jews.

Not really sure how much I can explain myself and not result in a ban/kick, so I think I'm not going to. I do know that the Gypsies of Europe are very much discriminated against. Im not going to list the stereotypes here but anybody who lives in Europe and deals with these people knows the stereotypes I'm talking about, regardless of whether true or not. Something would have to be done about these stereotypes and European perception of the Gypsies for them to emerge from their outcast status.
 

fashbasher

Banned
There would have to be way more changes in the Roma than forming guilds etc... in order for them to switch places with the Jews.

Not really sure how much I can explain myself and not result in a ban/kick, so I think I'm not going to. I do know that the Gypsies of Europe are very much discriminated against. Im not going to list the stereotypes here but anybody who lives in Europe and deals with these people knows the stereotypes I'm talking about, regardless of whether true or not. Something would have to be done about these stereotypes and European perception of the Gypsies for them to emerge from their outcast status.

What if they organize early enough that the stereotypes never form?
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
I imagine Jews would have been banned from adopting Christians, even if it meant the children were left as street urchins or sold to North Africa or something. I imagine there would be something tinged with the Blood Libel if a Christian (They baptised kids soon after birth, meaning basically all non-Jewish kids in Europe) child had any blood spilled from circumcision. Which they would. That is why it is done early on when the nerves aren't as advanced. Or something.

I would imagine merchants would be likely to have sufficient cover to get round this due to their mobility, marginal people are likely to have been adopted at some points.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
There would have to be way more changes in the Roma than forming guilds etc... in order for them to switch places with the Jews.

Not really sure how much I can explain myself and not result in a ban/kick, so I think I'm not going to. I do know that the Gypsies of Europe are very much discriminated against. Im not going to list the stereotypes here but anybody who lives in Europe and deals with these people knows the stereotypes I'm talking about, regardless of whether true or not. Something would have to be done about these stereotypes and European perception of the Gypsies for them to emerge from their outcast status.

I suspect that if we avoid the enslavement of the Roma by the Romanians and Hungarians we can avoid this.
 
I would imagine merchants would be likely to have sufficient cover to get round this due to their mobility, marginal people are likely to have been adopted at some points.
True, true. May be that some of the merchants caravans would be open enough or have a somewhat mixed population, helping to confuse people who would want to persecute them, with the Christians among the group being sufficient to convince locals that the group is just foreign. A bit of mercy here and there from the Jews to those who are abanonded or lost in the woods and I imagine that some of the children and adults would wish to convert to Judaism.

I suspect that if we avoid the enslavement of the Roma by the Romanians and Hungarians we can avoid this.
Do you have some sources on this? I am not doubting it (as thralls, serfs, peasants, slaves, and unfree labor was around at different times throughout Europe for ages) but I am wondering which groups and time periods in specific did this and if the Magyars and Vlach responsible for this did the same to their own people or to prisoners of war.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
True, true. May be that some of the merchants caravans would be open enough or have a somewhat mixed population, helping to confuse people who would want to persecute them, with the Christians among the group being sufficient to convince locals that the group is just foreign. A bit of mercy here and there from the Jews to those who are abanonded or lost in the woods and I imagine that some of the children and adults would wish to convert to Judaism.


Do you have some sources on this? I am not doubting it (as thralls, serfs, peasants, slaves, and unfree labor was around at different times throughout Europe for ages) but I am wondering which groups and time periods in specific did this and if the Magyars and Vlach responsible for this did the same to their own people or to prisoners of war.

Gypsy slavery was abolished in Romania in the 1850's, though the process was staggered by region, starting in 1783. I would imagine there was still some gypsy slavery in the Ottoman empire after that. The situation was that any gypsy not owned by an individual was treated as a slave of the state, meaning that there was no "free black" caste, which perhaps means the racism of Romanian culture was more absolute than that of the US.

http://perspective.politice.ro/sites/default/files/pdf/cnecula.pdf
 
Not sure its possible, but the idea of the catholic church heading a bank used across Christendom in the middle ages is really interesting.
 
Gypsy slavery was abolished in Romania in the 1850's, though the process was staggered by region, starting in 1783. I would imagine there was still some gypsy slavery in the Ottoman empire after that. The situation was that any gypsy not owned by an individual was treated as a slave of the state, meaning that there was no "free black" caste, which perhaps means the racism of Romanian culture was more absolute than that of the US.

http://perspective.politice.ro/sites/default/files/pdf/cnecula.pdf

Gypsies could be sold into slavery in directly ruled Ottoman domains but they were free otherwise. Generally they had a higher status than in the rest of Europe (for example, they could serve in the military and didn't experience mass persecutions) while still being discriminated against. You may already know this but your post is slightly unclear.
 
I suspect that if we avoid the enslavement of the Roma by the Romanians and Hungarians we can avoid this.

Not entirely sure this would help the gypsy situation. As far as I know, the roma were enslaved only in romania. What about other european countries where there are anti gypsy stereotypes and discrimination, where no slavery existed?
 
There would have to be way more changes in the Roma than forming guilds etc... in order for them to switch places with the Jews.

Not really sure how much I can explain myself and not result in a ban/kick, so I think I'm not going to. I do know that the Gypsies of Europe are very much discriminated against. Im not going to list the stereotypes here but anybody who lives in Europe and deals with these people knows the stereotypes I'm talking about, regardless of whether true or not. Something would have to be done about these stereotypes and European perception of the Gypsies for them to emerge from their outcast status.
Are you saying Jews weren't discriminated against or stereotyped? Why do you think the Roma would need to not be stereotyped in order to switch places with the Jewish people as regarding their status? Jews were just as much an outcast and maybe I'm saying this because I'm Jewish, but I don't think the Roma had it harder than we did in Europe.
 
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