WI Jewish Russia

in 987, Prince Vladimir of Kiev, decided that his realm needed a proper religion. He sent emissaries to neighboring countries to research the religion of that area.

Islam had been dismissed as a choice due to their taboo on alcohol. Judiasm, which had been adopted by the Khazars, was ultimitaly rejected due to the loss of Jerusalem, a sign that they had been abandoned by god. Orthodox Christianity was later chosen, and became a key part of Russian Society.

But what if Prince Vladimir had chosen to adopt Judiasm?
 
in 987, Prince Vladimir of Kiev, decided that his realm needed a proper religion. He sent emissaries to neighboring countries to research the religion of that area.

Islam had been dismissed as a choice due to their taboo on alcohol. Judiasm, which had been adopted by the Khazars, was ultimitaly rejected due to the loss of Jerusalem, a sign that they had been abandoned by god. Orthodox Christianity was later chosen, and became a key part of Russian Society.

But what if Prince Vladimir had chosen to adopt Judiasm?

The problem with Vladimir converting to Judaism was that his own father had utterly destroyed the Khazar Kaganate not terribly long ago. He'd have no reason to convert to a religion that (in his mind) had been discredited.

If you want a Jewish Russia, you'll need an earlier POD. To borrow some ideas from what I've seen here on the subject before, perhaps the Khazar Kaganate survives for a far longer period of time than it did IOTL (no Sviatoslav, perhaps?), and a larger number of people within the Kaganate become Jews (in our world the extent of the conversion was probably limited to the governing elite). Spread by their traders, Judaism over time begins to spread northwards to the Rus...

Now if you have a Jewish Russia (perhaps going in hand with a Jewish *Lithuania too?), chances are that it becomes the target for would be Crusaders coming from the west...a lot of bloody religious wars in Eastern Europe is the end result, sadly. The ruling dynasty that emerges would probably try to imagine themselves as the successors to the House of David, and would do their best to build their capital as the "New Jerusalem."

Of course, with a POD in the 9th-10th centuries, who knows what the world would look like by the present day. It's no gurantee that Jewish *Russia would be some sort of superpower ruling over large swaths of Eurasia, but there are many directions that you could go in...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
It would have rather large effects, but most importantly Russia will likely not be unified. While Ukraine, the South (European) Russia and South Belarus become Jewish, the north is unlikely to be willing to give up pork, which were one of the primary sources of protein there. But because they cut of from Constatinoble they will likely stay Pagan and convert to Catholism in time. Likely North Russia will become part of Scandinavia/Norden purely cultural, even if they keep their own languages (which isn't a sure thing). The Jewish states in the south will likely become victims of nomadic invaders and later a victim of Polish or Lithuanian conquest. But likely we see Jewish (Slavic and Turkish) statelets in the east survive to the 18-19 century and maybe even to today.
 
If you want a Jewish Russia, you'll need an earlier POD. To borrow some ideas from what I've seen here on the subject before, perhaps the Khazar Kaganate survives for a far longer period of time than it did IOTL (no Sviatoslav, perhaps?), and a larger number of people within the Kaganate become Jews (in our world the extent of the conversion was probably limited to the governing elite). Spread by their traders, Judaism over time begins to spread northwards to the Rus...
There's one problem here. Opposition to Khazars was about the only thing tying Kievan Rus together. I don't see Khazars spreading their religion to Rus, frankly speaking... I was toying with "Jewish Rus" idea for some time, but couldn't find a plausible POD for conversion, barring ASBs or ISOT.

Now if you have a Jewish Russia (perhaps going in hand with a Jewish *Lithuania too?), chances are that it becomes the target for would be Crusaders coming from the west...
IOTL conversion of Rus did not cause conversion of Lithuania for 3-4 centuries more and if not for Mongols Lithuanians could remain pagans for some more time. Crusades are almost a given ITTL. Even IOTL a lot of Germanic activity along Baltic coast was within "crusades" framework.
The ruling dynasty that emerges would probably try to imagine themselves as the successors to the House of David, and would do their best to build their capital as the "New Jerusalem."
I think it wouldn't be too tough for newly Jewish Rurikids to find some bride from a Jewish family which could trace their lineage to David (even today several families can reportedly do that), so "Rurikids-Solomonids" are very distinct possibility. And "New Jerusalem" lore had been adopted even IOTL. ITTL it would be founding myth.

It's no gurantee that Jewish *Russia would be some sort of superpower ruling over large swaths of Eurasia, but there are many directions that you could go in...
I'm of opinion that relatively modern (for the day and age) agricultural civilization controlling Kama and Middle Volga basins in 16th century would at very least get Western Siberia almost inevitably. And this is the area where "Great Pork Border" goes through Eurasia :) So it is very possible that Jewish "Volga Principality" would end up controlling Urals and Western Siberia.


It would have rather large effects, but most importantly Russia will likely not be unified. While Ukraine, the South (European) Russia and South Belarus become Jewish, the north is unlikely to be willing to give up pork, which were one of the primary sources of protein there.
Yes, IOTL spread of Islam in Northern part of Volga basin had been stopped by this feature (at some point sheeps and goats cease to be viable substitutes for pork, I call it "Great Pork Border"). There are two possibilities here:
  1. Northbound spread of Judaism stops along Bryansk-Ryazan-Nizhni Novgorod line, with Northern Slavs remaining either Pagan or Catholic. Northbound spread of Slavs into OTL Central Russia would be likely fueled by religious dissidents, so expect *Vladimir duchy to be in close alliance with Novgorod and very hostile to Kievans.
  2. Cunning rabbis decide that "Rus is well worth a pig" and allow pork consumption (after all, swine does have cloven hoofs, it just doesn't chew cud). Unlikely but funny alternative.
But because they cut of from Constatinoble they will likely stay Pagan and convert to Catholism in time.
Yes, Novgorod would convert sometimes in early 11th century (they're too big and powerful for Crusade to succeed but it would be too bothersome for them to trade with now-baptized Northern Europe)
Likely North Russia will become part of Scandinavia/Norden purely cultural, even if they keep their own languages (which isn't a sure thing).
We're talking about Polish scenario, more or less. Poland didn't become part of Norden, why should Slavonia (Novgorodian Republic)?
The Jewish states in the south will likely become victims of nomadic invaders
This would depend on relationships between *Khazars and *Rus. Unified state could be just enough to stop Mongols at Volga :eek:
 

Valdemar II

Banned
We're talking about Polish scenario, more or less. Poland didn't become part of Norden, why should Slavonia (Novgorodian Republic)? This would depend on relationships between

I think a Polish scenario is unlikely, Poland was based on a focus toward Germany primary through the aristrocracy and settlement. Slavonia is going to based on mechant class instead, which will have century to intermarriage and integrate with their Nordic partners before the Hanse become a factor, at the same time Nordic settlement in Russia will be mostly limited to the non-Jewish areas, which place them in Slavonia, so the cultural element will be stronger, last and not least Russian culture will not be "contaminated" by the Mongols to the same degree, because of greater isolation from the Southen steppes. While linguistic integration is likely (by the Varang settlers), their culture and laws will likely slowly take over. So Slavonia turn into some kind of Slavic Finland (which in truth is just Finno-Ugric speaking Scandinavians) and they will in time will become one of the dominating cultures of Norden.
 
Urusai[InFi];2322260 said:
I always thought a Hindu or Buddhist Russia would have been interesting...
Yes, but I can't imagine how is it possible. Zoroastrinism, on a flip side, is doable (from Persia through Volga trade link).

I think a Polish scenario is unlikely, Poland was based on a focus toward Germany primary through the aristrocracy and settlement.
Assuming you're right, Poles didn't become Germans, did they? Why should Novgorod Slavs assimilate then?
Slavonia is going to based on mechant class instead, which will have century to intermarriage and integrate with their Nordic partners before the Hanse become a factor
It is quite possible that IOTL Novgorodian elites possessed a fair bit of Varangian blood, but it didn't make them Varangians. I just don't see significantly more powerful Scandinavian pressure ITTL. IOTL whatever Scandinavians were present they were so few that not a single word of their language came into Russian. ITTL they would leave dozen of words in Slavonian language (I'm being generous today). But that's it.
While linguistic integration is likely (by the Varang settlers), their culture and laws will likely slowly take over.
Identification of Varangians as Scandinavians is uncertain and extremely politicized by both sides of the great "Normanism vs. anti-Normanism" debates. Wikipedia article rely on extremely controversial and overwhelmingly Normanist (to a point of cheating, as in case of Duczko, I don't believe that a Slavic Pole can honestly believe in some of linguistic nonsense he's spewing) sources. To give you a hint, Primary Chronicle list "Varangians" among other tribes living along Baltic coast. Same list includes Prussians, Swedes, Goths, Norse, Chud. So, who's missing? Right, Western Slavs (Pomeranians).
So Slavonia turn into some kind of Slavic Finland (which in truth is just Finno-Ugric speaking Scandinavians) and they will in time will become one of the dominating cultures of Norden.
There are much more Slavs in Novgorod than Finns in Finland. In fact, Novgorodians were quite good in assmilating Finno-Ugric groups themselves.
 

Keenir

Banned
Cunning rabbis decide that "Rus is well worth a pig" and allow pork consumption (after all, swine does have cloven hoofs, it just doesn't chew cud). Unlikely but funny alternative

hadn't rabbis already - by that time - said that, if there was nothing else to eat, a[n observant] Jew may eat pork?

or is that a more recent development?
 
hadn't rabbis already - by that time - said that, if there was nothing else to eat, a[n observant] Jew may eat pork?

or is that a more recent development?
I don't remember. Besides, this ruling had clearly been meant as last-ditch measure for the times of extreme hardships, and pork consumption had been a necessity for Northern farming. You need more than that to allow Judaism spread into Central and Northern Russia (until you reach far North of Russia proper, as in White Sea coast, where combination of fishing and dairy farming can support pork-free diet again).

Another funny idea I was toying with is to have Russia convert to Karaite or some other non-mainstream branch of Judaism (or having separate Russia-only sect in Judaism, something like "pork-eating Jews"; this sect would have very uneasy relationships with Rabbinic Judaism, but it is theoretically possible to keep them in common fold without splitting into separate new religion a-la Christianity).
 
the north is unlikely to be willing to give up pork, which were one of the primary sources of protein there. But because they cut of from Constatinoble they will likely stay Pagan and convert to Catholism in time.


I don't remember. Besides, this ruling had clearly been meant as last-ditch measure for the times of extreme hardships, and pork consumption had been a necessity for Northern farming. You need more than that to allow Judaism spread into Central and Northern Russia (until you reach far North of Russia proper, as in White Sea coast, where combination of fishing and dairy farming can support pork-free diet again).


I'm channeling Faeelin (might not be him, but for some reason I think it is... :confused:) here when I say this, but PORK IS NOT A STICKING POINT.
There is no
"Jewish Inquisition" at this point, brutally enforcing orthodox Judaism upon the Diaspora. Sure, converts were recommended to abstain from pork, but I am positive that this was not followed universally. It may have gone against Judaism, but there would have been some leeway. I can see the Rus' converting but inventing excuses for it. Similar to how Muslims get around the Koran's ban on alcohol.

It is possible for the Rus' to convert without radical changes to Judaism. I don't see why people always think that these minor issues would play a huge role in determination.


But that's it.
Identification of Varangians as Scandinavians is uncertain and extremely politicized by both sides of the great "Normanism vs. anti-Normanism" debates. Wikipedia article rely on extremely controversial and overwhelmingly Normanist (to a point of cheating, as in case of Duczko, I don't believe that a Slavic Pole can honestly believe in some of linguistic nonsense he's spewing) sources.

Out of curiosity, do you have any anti-Normanist (or just non-Normanist) sources besides the Primary Chronicle? I'm not trying to insinuate anything, I just don't see many of them and would like to give them a read. Thanks.
 
There's little possibility of Varangians ever assimilating Novgorod. It was one of the biggest cities in Europe, and a lot richer than Norway and maybe even about on par with most of Sweden, and an able competitor in the late middle ages to the Swedish crown.

Their military exploits, however, are so underwhelming in comparison to their population and economy that people tend to think of the Ilmen Slovene as some minor nation. They were anything but.

As to the Scandinavian vs. non-Scandinavian Varangians: I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference, to be honest. The Scandinavians were certainly pioneers in the Sea-King business and as the Danish, German and Polish crowns slowly squeeze the Wends and the Balts, they are bound to become the only kind of "Varangian" by the early 1100s at the latest.

Even if Rurik and co. were of some other language, their descendants easily and naturally interacted with the patently Scandinavian mercenaries that arrived later. That didn't make Rus any less Slavic in the end, however.
 
There is no "Jewish Inquisition" at this point, brutally enforcing orthodox Judaism upon the Diaspora. Sure, converts were recommended to abstain from pork, but I am positive that this was not followed universally. It may have gone against Judaism, but there would have been some leeway. I can see the Rus' converting but inventing excuses for it. Similar to how Muslims get around the Koran's ban on alcohol.
Just for the sake of clarity, there was Exilarch in Iran, wielding considerable authority and controlling famous rabbinic academy. Besides, just like Muslims never adopted pork in Northern countries (I used Upper Volga example number of times, northbound spread of Islam there died naturally, leaving number of "half-converted" tribes), Jews are likely to do the same without explicit decision of higher religious authority.

Out of curiosity, do you have any anti-Normanist (or just non-Normanist) sources besides the Primary Chronicle? I'm not trying to insinuate anything, I just don't see many of them and would like to give them a read. Thanks.
Chronicle itself (as well as handful of other sources, mostly Arabian and Persian) is neither Normanist nor anti-Normanist. They're so vague and uncertain that they can be interpreted in any fashion, depending on reader's agenda. Besides, Chronicle isn't contemporary (it was written at least 250 years after Rurik) and is very much influenced by political debates of the day (salaried Anti-Communists like Conquest look almost neutral in their description of USSR comparing to some of Nestor's descriptions of events in Rus circa 1100 AD), and "Oriental" (for lack of better term) accounts are nice example of "Cranberry tree" journalism (author doesn't have a clue what he's talking about but is eager to present himself as authority on subject).

Their military exploits, however, are so underwhelming in comparison to their population and economy that people tend to think of the Ilmen Slovene as some minor nation. They were anything but.
Those "minor exploits" gave them a territory which makes anything in Europe but Frankish Empire to look like minor principality :) It is just that bulk of their efforts (except stopping Swedish eastbound expansion cold) was against tribes without written history.
 
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