WI: Jewish Muhammad

[GoulashComrade]

Would his form of Judaism essentially be a form of Arabian Karaites?

I'm not sure why they would be. According to visiting Abyssinian Jews, the Jewish population of the Peninsula was somewhat loose in its interpretations of halaka, but all the evidence we have of the time indicates that Arabia's Jewish community in the 7th century was strongly rabbinical.


Edit: a TL where Rabbi Muhammad rebuilds the Temple after driving out the Romans is something I didn't know I needed until now.

 

[danteheadman]

Would his form of Judaism essentially be a form of Arabian Karaites?

Maybe! I have no idea if Muhammad would want to sweep away the last few centuries of post-Second Temple Rabbinic thought or not. Given OTL Islam's ... let's call it "disdain" for both Rabbinic and Church extratextual thinking, I'd imagine that he would. Which would make Rabbi Muhammad very different than the Geonim!

OTL Karaite Judaism began during the Geonic period under the Abbasids. Fun fact: apparently the founder of the Karaite movement, Anan ben-David, was close with Abu Hanifa.

So this isn't just "Jewish Muhammad." It's (almost) a Karaitewank!

Would i be wrong in thinking that this Rabbi Mohammed, andor his successors, would rebuild the temple?

Most certainly he or one of his successors would do that, in place of building the Dome of the Rock.

As far as rebuilding the Temple, would that still be something to happen with the return of the Messiah or would it be undertaken to help his arrival...

I imagine the latter, especially if Muhammad sees himself as a reformer and/or purifier of Judaism. (And I'm not saying that he would proclaim himself Messiah, but he might be proclaimed the Messiah if he successfully reconquers Jerusalem and rebuilds the Temple. But if he

I mean, they could try. The Rashidun Army could go toe to toe with an ERE on the ascendant under Caesar Heraclius and there's no reason to think that a Jewish version of that army would be any less of a devastating military force (led, of course, by observant Jew Khalid ibn al Walid .) Remember, the Axumite-Arab governor of Yemen Abraha and his war elephants got his ass handed to him by the city of Makkah alone. Muslims say it was divine intervention that stopped him, but even if you don't believe that, it's a damning indictment of Axum's ability to project power around the time of Muhammad's birth.

I do agree that an invasion attempt of Axum would be hard to pull off, as evidenced by OTL, but if the Axumites tried to intervene in the deeper Peninsula like it did with Abraha, my guess would be that they would get thoroughly whooped.

This is my thinking as well. But before we can chart the history of the !Rashidun, we need to figure out what happened to Rabbi Muhammad.

History is weird, mate! People are often unaware of how closely tied Prophet Muhammad's early community of Companions were to the Peninsula's Jewish tribes. The orientalist and scholar of Islam Theodore Noldeke once pointed out that for the holy book of a religion intended to be a radically reforming Abrahamism, the Qur'an seems to go out of its way to avoid attacking the Torah and the Bible even when criticizing Christians and Jews. Another interesting case is that of Rabbi Mukhayriq, the Rabbi who led his a section of his clan to fight alongside Muhammad and the Muslims against the Quraysh at Uhud. Mukhayriq dies in that battle and Muhammad ordered that he be buried as a martyr. An Arab Muslim objected to the burying of Rabbi Mukhayriq with the Muslim dead, to which the Prophet angrily replied "Do not speak if you are ignorant! Mukhayriq's soul sits at the right side of God's throne! Instead of insulting your fallen brother, pray that you recieve a speck of the honor the Almighty has bestowed on him in Paradise!" Although this account is usually used to prove that the righteous non-Muslim dead go to heaven in Islam, a minority of Abbasid-era scholars even believed that since Muhammad (as far as records could prove) only did this for martyred Jews, only Jews and Muslims went immediately to Islamic Paradise.

That's absolutely fascinating! I genuinely have never heard of Rabbi Mukhayriq before. Thank you.

I'll gladly offer my services here. Early Islamic history is one of the very few periods of history I have any level of expertise in, so I could help you on that side of things

Excellent! And in the spirit of this TL, we have a Jew and Muslim collaborating to make something unique. So that's neat

EDIT:

I'm not sure why they would be. According to visiting Abyssinian Jews, the Jewish population of the Peninsula was somewhat loose in its interpretations of halaka, but all the evidence we have of the time indicates that Arabia's Jewish community in the 7th century was strongly rabbinical.

Edit: a TL where Rabbi Muhammad rebuilds the Temple after driving out the Romans is something I didn't know I needed until now.

The Karaite movement was still "rabbinical," sort of. They didn't object to scholarly interpretation of the Torah. What they fought against was the Rabbinical claim that the Oral Torah (the Mishnah, Talmud, and all the rabbi's scholarly decisions) were based on an older divinely-sourced tradition. Rabbinic Judaism asserts that the rabbis' rulings are part of a chain of transmission and scholarship that stretched all the way back to Moses at Sinai. Karaite Judaism rejects that assertion. Check out p.42 of this .pdf for an explanation of the debate. See also here and here for further explanation about Karaite Judaism.

And yes I too have a mighty need for this TL

 

[GoulashComrade]

One idea for making Muhammad more deeply tied to the Jewish community and consider himself a Jew would be to have his father Abdullah ibn Abdul Muttalib accept the proposed marriage between him and a lady (idk her name, I can't find any sources recording it) from the Jewish Banu Qaynuqa tribe that he turned down (along with many others) IOTL. Now, this alone might not be enough to fully ground *Muhammad in his Jewish heritage, but then you could have him raised by his mother's side of the family instead of his paternal grandfather Abdul Muttalib if he becomes an orphan like OTL.


The main themes that characterize early Islam are (besides all the monotheism stuff, of course) antagonism to tribalism/Makkan-style social stratification and a Christianity-esque concern with the state of the underclasses (particularly women, the clanless poor, slaves, and orphans.) I think to have the same broad appeal with Makkah's poor, Rabbi Muhammad would have to be similarly confrontational with the tribal elites of the city. At least in TTL, though, his initial support base would be much stronger.

Edit: @danteheadman upon looking through those links you put up, actually Karaite Judaism sounds like exactly the sort of thing a Rabbi Muhammad would be behind.

 

[danteheadman]

One idea for making Muhammad more deeply tied to the Jewish community and consider himself a Jew would be to have his father Abdullah ibn Abdul Muttalib accept the proposed marriage between him and a lady (idk her name, I can't find any sources recording it) from the Jewish Banu Qaynuqa tribe that he turned down (along with many others) IOTL. Now, this alone might not be enough to fully ground *Muhammad in his Jewish heritage, but then you could have him raised by his mother's side of the family instead of his paternal grandfather Abdul Muttalib if he becomes an orphan like OTL.

Where did you hear about this? Where can I learn more?

The main themes that characterize early Islam are (besides all the monotheism stuff, of course) antagonism to tribalism/Makkan-style social stratification and a Christianity-esque concern with the state of the underclasses (particularly women, the clanless poor, slaves, and orphans.) I think to have the same broad appeal with Makkah's poor, Rabbi Muhammad would have to be similarly confrontational with the tribal elites of the city. At least in TTL, though, his initial support base would be much stronger.

Edit: @danteheadman upon looking through those links you put up, actually Karaite Judaism sounds like exactly the sort of thing a Rabbi Muhammad would be behind.

Yep.
Where can I learn more about pre-Islamic Arabia and Muhammad's life? There's so much terrible nonsense on the internet and I don't want to get sidetracked by lies.

 

[GoulashComrade]

Where did you hear about this? Where can I learn more?

This is from Ibn Shihab Az-Zuhri's Al-Seeratul Al-Nabawiyya, which is one of the earliest of the seerahs to have been complied (it was written during the early Umayyad period, when many Companions were still alive, and Al-Zuhri himself was born only 50 years after the Hijrah.) I haven't found this by itself in English, but luckily, the sections where Ibn Shihab discusses the Prophet Muhammad's parents have been translated into English for a separate project by the contemporary scholar Al-A'zami in his Cambridge doctoral thesis Studies in Early Hadith Literature.

Where can I learn more about pre-Islamic Arabia and Muhammad's life? There's so much terrible nonsense on the internet and I don't want to get sidetracked by lies.

So, the traditional wisdom has long been that The Sealed Nectar is the best modern-day treatment of the life of the Prophet, but I'd say steer clear of that. Not only is it really hagiographical (which most seerahs are, tbf) and often cherry-picks narratives to promote a conservative view of Islam (unsurprisingly, as it was heavily funded/promoted by Gulf State institutions), but it's also just terribly translated into English. The book in Arabic isn't that bad of a read, but it's barely coherent once translated.

I'd recommend two different books (with a bonus if you still want more), both of which have their own merits.

• Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources by Martin Lings. This one is my personal favorite and I think it does the best job of not discounting traditional sources while keeping a healthy academic skepticism. Lings is a native English speaker with a clear writing style, but his mastery of Arabic is such that he provides his own translations for the Qur'an verses that come up as they appear in the story, and translating the Qur'an is not easy. He's a Sufi and an academic, so there's not too much promotion of this book from the good ol' KSA, but I'd say that this is the single best book on the life of the Prophet in English today
• Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong. This, IMO, is the best and most well-researched treatment of Muhammad by a non-Muslim Western academic on the market. Dr. Armstrong doesn't have the Arabic skills of Lings which keeps her from directly engaging with the source texts in the way that he can, but her superior knowledge of Jewish and Christian theology as well the general history of the 7th century shines through. Armstrong does a great job of synthesizing a lot of the current academic consensus and provides her own interpretations of events based on her research.

The extra, so to speak, is Revelation: The Story of Muhammad, edited by Meraj Mohiuddin. Only published 3 years ago, this book is massive and features heavy contributions by scholars as eminent as Hamza Yusuf, Karen Armstrong, W. Montgomery Watt (yeah, THE Watt) and Tariq Ramadan. It's done in a textbook style and the writing is very technical, but if someone wanted a scholastically rigorous and in-depth work on Muhammad, I'd suggest Revelation. It assumes you have some understanding of what's going on in the Prophet's life already, though, so I wouldn't recommend it as an introductory book.

 

[danteheadman]

snip

Thank you! I'll definitely read these as soon as I have the time for a big project.

The only way I can see that !Muhammad could end up espousing a Karaite-ish Judaism is if he grew up more closely connected to his Jewish heritage. Which would mean that he needs to have some close connection to the Arabian Jewish tribes. Let's say !Muhammad's mother was the Jewish woman from the Banu Qaynuqa tribe and his father still dies of an illness before his birth. Would Muhammad still be raised by his paternal grandfather? How did intra-tribal family politics work?

Both Rabbinic and Karaite Judaism make the same claim: with the destruction of the Temples, God has "hidden His face" from Israel and will not provide true Prophecy until the Messiah comes (Ezekiel 39:22-29; Isaiah 29:9-14). But the Talmud has a large number of stories of rabbinic sages meeting Elijah the Prophet, hearing the bat kol (revelation not at the level of prophecy, literally: "daughter of the voice," understood to be akin to hearing the echo of God's revelation), and so on. Which would mean that Judaism at this time OTL wasn't completely adverse to people receiving revelation of some kind, even if it isn't necessarily Revelation.

I can imagine that Muhammad's initial revelation of the angel Jibreel telling him to "Read!" could be more or less the same as OTL, except instead of promulgating a new text he only "reads" the Tanakh. IIRC Islam already claims that Muhammad is the "prophet like unto Moses" spoken about in Devarim. ITTL Muhammad could still claim to be that, provided he's the herald of that militarist Messiah which Judaism anticipated. And he would probably be rejected by some or all of the Geonim, according to a couple possible scenarios:

(1) Instead of completely throwing the Mishnah and Talmud out, !Muhammad picks and chooses between the rulings within the Talmud and says "this is right, this is not right. There's already a method in Rabbinic Judaism that he could do such a thing: teiku, which means "we don't know the answer and Elijah the Prophet will answer them with Divine Inspiration." !Muhammad could take that role of reformist Rabbi and pare down the complexities of the Rabbinic Law. He would have the backing of the whole Rabbinic establishment after defeating them legally, and then (possibly) defeating the few schismatics who refused his rulings militarily. This is the one I would prefer, but I don't know if !Muhammad would do it.

(2) !Muhammad takes a strong proto-Karaite stance against the whole Rabbinic establishment, but still manages to unite the Jewish and non-Jewish Arabian tribes under his antiestablishment Jewish banner. We avert the battles against the Jews of Medina by having Muhammad lead them. The Geonic establishment is sidelined and eventually fades away or becomes the minority. ITTL Rabbinic Judaism is the minority and Muhammad-Karaite Judaism is the majority (the opposite from OTL). Though this is the outcome I would rather not happen, I think this is the more likely one !Muhammad would take.

@GoulashComrade I want your opinion on that. Which do you think is the more likely direction !Muhammad would take? I don't think these are necessarily the only possible options, but I think they're the two most likely ones. And I have some ideas about how !Muhammad's succession could go - and I want to see a schism where the minority party (!Shia) is the more-Rabbinic one and the majority part (!Sunni) is the more-Karaite one - but we'd need to figure out how !Muhammad's life goes before we determine what happens after his life ends.

 

[danteheadman]

Concerning the connection between !Muhammad, his heirs, and the Davidic line (necessary for his connection to the Messiah): there are a few OTL persons reasonably contemporary to Muhammad that claimed patrilineal Davidic lineage. Most known was the Exilarchate. I'll do some digging to try and find the most historically-verifiable patrilineal descendant, and we can tie that person to !Muhammad's Companions. That way, one of !Muhammad's heirs (the !Sunni one) could be reasonably labeled Moshiach and his followers recognize !Muhammad not merely as the greatest Rabbi and sage since Moses, but as an actual Prophet as well.

And fun fact: OTL Rabbi Hillel the Elder was matrilineally from the Davidic line, and his great grandson Rabbi Shimeon ben Gamliel was a major figure during the Great Jewish Revolt / First Roman-Jewish War.

 

[CountDVB]

This has become very fascinating very quickly!

Now, I’m not an expert of this, but there is one large benefit here we haven’t accounted for.

Iran.

Zoroastrians were pretty close to Jewish people apparently and so I figure Jewish Arabia would focus more on the Roman Empire. This could allow Iran to recover and maybe Zoroastrianism would spread more east instead of Islam (Zoroastrian East Africa...??)

 

[Eivind]

This has become very fascinating very quickly!

Now, I’m not an expert of this, but there is one large benefit here we haven’t accounted for.

Iran.

Zoroastrians were pretty close to Jewish people apparently and so I figure Jewish Arabia would focus more on the Roman Empire. This could allow Iran to recover and maybe Zoroastrianism would spread more east instead of Islam (Zoroastrian East Africa...??)

But the Zoroastrians were´t really trying to spread their religion, where they? I assume that a Jewish Arab empire would at least try to conquer Palestine and other areas that according to the Jewish Bible were considered part of the land given by Yahweh to the Jews.

 

[CountDVB]

But the Zoroastrians were´t really trying to spread their religion, where they? I assume that a Jewish Arab empire would at least try to conquer Palestine and other areas that according to the Jewish Bible were considered part of the land given by Yahweh to the Jews.

No, though I figured with Iran now having a buffer between them and the Romans, they’d probably wanna explore more and such.

A good point on the holy land stuff though. I thought the Romans had that though

 

[GoulashComrade]

The only way I can see that !Muhammad could end up espousing a Karaite-ish Judaism is if he grew up more closely connected to his Jewish heritage. Which would mean that he needs to have some close connection to the Arabian Jewish tribes. Let's say !Muhammad's mother was the Jewish woman from the Banu Qaynuqa tribe and his father still dies of an illness before his birth. Would Muhammad still be raised by his paternal grandfather? How did intra-tribal family politics work?

Pre-Islamic Arabia was incredibly patriarchal, but interestingly, tribal relations were one of the rare situations where there was some equity between a mother and a father. Descent was through the male line for Arabs, but depending on the particular relationship or situation, the woman's side of the family could take precedence for a kid. For example, Caliph Umar ibn al Khattab often called himself a man of Makhzum, even though that was his mother's clan.

The Banu Hashim (!Muhammad's clan patrilineally) were a well-respected clan for being the custodians of the Kaaba and feeding the yearly pilgrims to Makkah, but they were quite poor. The Banu Qaynuqa (!Muhammad's matrilineal clan) were also well-respected for their status as one of of the three "great" Jewish tribes and were considerably wealthier than the Banu Hashim, if not as wealthy as Banu Umayya or the other magnates of Makkah. !Muhammad might be sent to live with them simply because they would provide him a nicer life than Abdul Muttalib could.

I want your opinion on that. Which do you think is the more likely direction !Muhammad would take? I don't think these are necessarily the only possible options, but I think they're the two most likely ones. And I have some ideas about how !Muhammad's succession could go - and I want to see a schism where the minority party (!Shia) is the more-Rabbinic one and the majority part (!Sunni) is the more-Karaite one - but we'd need to figure out how !Muhammad's life goes before we determine what happens after his life ends.

Now, I agree that the second option is probably more likely, but something just occurred to me. A !Muhammad raised by the Qaynuqa would spend his formative years in Madinah (or Yathrib, I guess) not Makkah. There are still similar situations, like how he'd still be a member of one of the city's respected folks while preaching, so he couldn't simply be killed by the people he's roasting. A crucial difference I'd see, though, is that !Muhammad would be away from the center of pagan worship/pilgrimages run for monetary gain and in the less fervently polytheist town of Yathrib. Instead of becoming a quite radically reforming figure like he did OTL in response to what he saw as society's deviation from divine truth, Rabbi Muhammad might be somewhat less eager to throw out the whole rotten system and takes a more temperate stance in his reforms.

 

[Eivind]

A good point on the holy land stuff though. I thought the Romans had that though

Yes, it was under the Romans/Byzantines, so it would probably be among the areas that a Jewish empire would most likely want to conquer. IIRC, Jews were not even allowed to live in Jerusalem during the last centuries before the Arab conquest.

 

[danteheadman]

Pre-Islamic Arabia was incredibly patriarchal, but interestingly, tribal relations were one of the rare situations where there was some equity between a mother and a father. Descent was through the male line for Arabs, but depending on the particular relationship or situation, the woman's side of the family could take precedence for a kid. For example, Caliph Umar ibn al Khattab often called himself a man of Makhzum, even though that was his mother's clan.

The Banu Hashim (!Muhammad's clan patrilineally) were a well-respected clan for being the custodians of the Kaaba and feeding the yearly pilgrims to Makkah, but they were quite poor. The Banu Qaynuqa (!Muhammad's matrilineal clan) were also well-respected for their status as one of of the three "great" Jewish tribes and were considerably wealthier than the Banu Hashim, if not as wealthy as Banu Umayya or the other magnates of Makkah. !Muhammad might be sent to live with them simply because they would provide him a nicer life than Abdul Muttalib could.

Thank you for the explanation.

Now, I agree that the second option is probably more likely, but something just occurred to me. A !Muhammad raised by the Qaynuqa would spend his formative years in Madinah (or Yathrib, I guess) not Makkah. There are still similar situations, like how he'd still be a member of one of the city's respected folks while preaching, so he couldn't simply be killed by the people he's roasting. A crucial difference I'd see, though, is that !Muhammad would be away from the center of pagan worship/pilgrimages run for monetary gain and in the less fervently polytheist town of Yathrib. Instead of becoming a quite radically reforming figure like he did OTL in response to what he saw as society's deviation from divine truth, Rabbi Muhammad might be somewhat less eager to throw out the whole rotten system and takes a more temperate stance in his reforms.

That could be why he'd stay within the Jewish system of Halakhah and not start his own religion, I think. What other impacts do you think this could have?

I said in an earlier comment that Judaism is flexible enough to accommodate additional holy cities, provided they're second to Jerusalem. Like Hebron and Tzfat. I'm sure that both Yathrib / Madinah and Makkah would become major cities within Muhammad's Karaite world.

 

[CountDVB]

Yes, it was under the Romans/Byzantines, so it would probably be among the areas that a Jewish empire would most likely want to conquer. IIRC, Jews were not even allowed to live in Jerusalem during the last centuries before the Arab conquest.

So I figured Jewish Arabia would try and get up to Anatolia with help from Iran in regards to fighting the Romans. Then they’d probably spread across North Africa.

Granted, I am not sure if Arabiazation would still happen. Maybe Hebrew would be used instead...??

Also, I figure Judaisim probably wouldn’t stick to the people of North Africa unless syncretism occurred though I can see this getting Ethiopia to also focus on spreading out some more as well.

 

[danteheadman]

So I figured Jewish Arabia would try and get up to Anatolia with help from Iran in regards to fighting the Romans. Then they’d probably spread across North Africa.

Granted, I am not sure if Arabiazation would still happen. Maybe Hebrew would be used instead...??

Also, I figure Judaisim probably wouldn’t stick to the people of North Africa unless syncretism occurred though I can see this getting Ethiopia to also focus on spreading out some more as well.

Arabization and Judaization would go hand in hand ITTL just as Arabization and Islamization did OTL.
Why don't you think it would stick in North Africa?

 

[CountDVB]

Arabization and Judaization would go hand in hand ITTL just as Arabization and Islamization did OTL.
Why don't you think it would stick in North Africa?

Islam was found as a pretty distinct religion in Arab tradition, so the two were always connected at the hip.

Judaism meanwhile already has long history behind it and you also have to take into account the Jewish diaspora that may flock to this land. Granted, maybe the varying cultures end up mixed together or such.

 

[danteheadman]

But the Zoroastrians were´t really trying to spread their religion, where they? I assume that a Jewish Arab empire would at least try to conquer Palestine and other areas that according to the Jewish Bible were considered part of the land given by Yahweh to the Jews.

No, though I figured with Iran now having a buffer between them and the Romans, they’d probably wanna explore more and such. A good point on the holy land stuff though. I thought the Romans had that though

I don't know if they would try to conquer Persia. I'm pretty sure that the Rashiduns tried to conquer Byzantium and just couldn't - but my knowledge of the early Islamic expansions is minimal at best.

But I strongly believe that state actors don't have friendships. They have interests. If the Caliphate sees and opportunity to conquer a rich and powerful part of the world, they definitely would - and they'd justify it under whatever ideology they follow. "The Persians brought us back to Jerusalem - let's bring Jerusalem to them" or something. This is a TL where Judaism is expansionist and not insular. A Jewish Persia alongside a Jewish Arabia would probably seem like a great coup to Rabbi Muhammad's successors.

 

[danteheadman]

Islam was found as a pretty distinct religion in Arab tradition, so the two were always connected at the hip.

Judaism meanwhile already has long history behind it and you also have to take into account the Jewish diaspora that may flock to this land. Granted, maybe the varying cultures end up mixed together or such.

Medieval societies weren't really much for multiculturalism. The rulers of this realm would be Rabbi Muhammad's Karaite-ish Jewish Arabs. There's no reason why the rulers wouldn't at minimum try to impose both onto their subjects. Whether they'd succeed or not is a different question. OTL Arabization didn't work in Persia but did (more or less) in the Maghreb. Perhaps it wouldn't work in the Levant ("We're not bnei Ishmael, we're bnei Israel") but perhaps it would ("Muhammad's father was bnei Ishmael and his mother was bnei Israel, we are all the children of Avraham and our mighty nations must be together under the Law").

 

[CountDVB]

I don't know if they would try to conquer Persia. I'm pretty sure that the Rashiduns tried to conquer Byzantium and just couldn't - but my knowledge of the early Islamic expansions is minimal at best.

But I strongly believe that state actors don't have friendships. They have interests. If the Caliphate sees and opportunity to conquer a rich and powerful part of the world, they definitely would - and they'd justify it under whatever ideology they follow. "The Persians brought us back to Jerusalem - let's bring Jerusalem to them" or something. This is a TL where Judaism is expansionist and not insular. A Jewish Persia alongside a Jewish Arabia would probably seem like a great coup to Rabbi Muhammad's successors.

Yeah, though I doubt they’ll succeed given that the religions are pretty different not to mention some of the other issues.

 

[danteheadman]

Yeah, though I doubt they’ll succeed given that the religions are pretty different not to mention some of the other issues.

Please contribute to the discussion and worldbuilding by explaining why you think that and what issues you see! Let's collaborate. Don't just say "nah" and leave it at that.