WI: Jewish Muhammad

[danteheadman]

Islam and Judaism are very theologically similar. There are only a handful of differences: Islam asserts that Muhammad is the last prophet, but Judaism claims that the age of prophets had ended with the Temple's destruction and would not resume until the Messianic Age; Muhammad proclaimed a new set of laws for Muslims, contained in the Quran, which differ in significant ways from the laws contained in the Torah; and Muhammad asserted that Jesus was the Messiah, which Jews categorically rejected.

Arabian Jews rejected Muhammad for these reasons. And it was because of this rejection that Muhammad changed his tone towards Jews - calling them cursed, calling the Torah corrupted, and switching the qiblah from Jerusalem to Mecca.

If Muhammad had not made those claims, but instead styled himself as a Jewish reformer preaching Torah and rejecting Jesus entirely, so that Jews accepted him as a great sage and Rabbi ... what then? How would Medieval history have been different?

 

[Eivind]

You mean if Muhammad simply converted and became a rabbi, that is no attempt to really change Judaism? I am a bit uncertain what you mean with "reformer". Do you assume that he remained basically unknown? Part of the reason why he eventually was accepted by the rulers in Mecca was that he was willing to give Mecca a special status and gave the Kaaba a special status. If he simply became a Jew, his life would be very different. There is no reason to assume that Muhammad would end up uniting the tribes of Arabia. Most likely he would remain totally unknown to most people. There would be no unified Arab attempt to conquer areas in the Byzantine and Sassanid empires. With no Islam, the world would look very different. Southern Europe would be more closely linked to North Africa than to Northern Europe. There would still be a lot friction between various varieties of Christianity, and it is by no means certain that the Byzantines would be able to keep Egypt and Syria. Maybe those areas would separate and become independent empires? Spain remaining controlled by Christians throughout the middle ages would also create a lot of butterflies. Charlemagne, "the father of Europe" would of course be butterflied, as he was born long after Muhammad. How would this influence developments in Northern Europe? There would probably still be attempts to make those areas Christian, but it is by no means certain that one would see a person resembling Charlemagne.

 

[sloreck]

Mothra size butterflies emerge. To simplify a lot, a major difference between Islam and Judaism is the former is aggressively encourages (and some would say forces) conversion, whereas the latter makes it difficult to convert. It is not impossible to see Judaism become more aggressive with converts, but the level of early Islam I very much doubt it. Just this one difference means anything after the life of Muhammad is wildly different.

 

[danteheadman]

You mean if Muhammad simply converted and became a rabbi, that is no attempt to really change Judaism? I am a bit uncertain what you mean with "reformer". Do you assume that he remained basically unknown? Part of the reason why he eventually was accepted by the rulers in Mecca was that he was willing to give Mecca a special status and gave the Kaaba a special status. If he simply became a Jew, his life would be very different. There is no reason to assume that Muhammad would end up uniting the tribes of Arabia. Most likely he would remain totally unknown to most people. There would be no unified Arab attempt to conquer areas in the Byzantine and Sassanid empires.

By "reformer," I mean that he would seek to militarily reinstate Jewish sovereignty over the region (a few hundred years after that was last tried & the Rabbinic establishment became disillusioned with violent revolts) and rebuild the Temple. And I don't assume that he would remain basically unknown, nor do I imagine that he would be if he managed to conquer anything of note (like Jerusalem). I'm assuming that ITTL Muhammad tries to expand militarily, just as he did OTL.

There's also nothing really theologically wrong with assigning Mecca and the Kaaba a special status provided it's not superior to Jerusalem. OTL Tzfat became a "Jewish holy city" in the 1400s, for example.

Why wouldn't Muhammad unite the tribes of Arabia? ITTL all that changes is the religion he tries to unite them with. Muhammad was from the prominent Quraysh tribe and managed to unite Arabia through military conquests. If/when Muhammad or his heirs unite Arabia, they'll march on Jerusalem - and afterwards naturally want to expand to the fertile lands in Mesopotamia and Egypt, if they're able to, for food security purposes. And once they've done that, the Arabian-Jewish polity would likely act much as other empires of its time acted. They'd play the geopolitical game.

Mothra size butterflies emerge. To simplify a lot, a major difference between Islam and Judaism is the former is aggressively encourages (and some would say forces) conversion, whereas the latter makes it difficult to convert. It is not impossible to see Judaism become more aggressive with converts, but the level of early Islam I very much doubt it. Just this one difference means anything after the life of Muhammad is wildly different.

There is debate: some claim that Judaism used to be a proselytizing religion and that changed when oppressive Christian and, later, Muslim rulers forbade it. I agree that it's possible for ITTL Judaism to become more pro-proselytizing, and that this had broad implications

 

[Brunaburh]

Mothra size butterflies emerge. To simplify a lot, a major difference between Islam and Judaism is the former is aggressively encourages (and some would say forces) conversion, whereas the latter makes it difficult to convert. It is not impossible to see Judaism become more aggressive with converts, but the level of early Islam I very much doubt it. Just this one difference means anything after the life of Muhammad is wildly different.

That is not true for the time and place we are talking about, Judaism was still making converts in the East at that time. Judaism stopped making converts when it had to for reasons of self-preservation.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

That is not true for the time and place we are talking about, Judaism was still making converts in the East at that time.

They were, but I think since Roman times the Jews weren't trying very hard, focusing on educating their own rather than convince people of the "right" way to worship god.

Even if they were trying, it might be hard to do so when your god does things that humans would consider entrapment http://thetorah.com/taking-control-of-the-story-god-hardens-pharaohs-heart/ oh... wait Christianity has that too. Ok, I guess that's clearly not a limiting factor.

Maybe allowing redemption makes proctheyizing easier? If someone tells you your religious beliefs are wrong and there is no redemption, you either don't believe them, or do believe them and now have no incentive to convert since you lived your whole life doing things god/the gods disapprove of and you can't regain his/her/their favor.

 

[danteheadman]

They were, but I think since Roman times the Jews weren't trying very hard, focusing on educating their own rather than convince people of the "right" way to worship god.

Even if they were trying, it might be hard to do so when your god does things that humans would consider entrapment http://thetorah.com/taking-control-of-the-story-god-hardens-pharaohs-heart/ oh... wait Christianity has that too. Ok, I guess that's clearly not a limiting factor.

It's hard to proselytize when your society's been completely destroyed by the Roman Empire. Not only was it illegal to do so within Christian (and, later, Muslim) societies; and only was it a good idea to focus inward and spend some time rebuilding your society in the first few centuries of exile; but non-Jews who could be proselytized to generally weren't particularly interested. Vladimir of Kiev, for example, considered Judaism in the late 900s but rejected it because of antisemitic oppression and the loss of Jerusalem. At that time, Jews had given up on the dream of returning militarily.

Maybe allowing redemption makes proctheyizing easier? If someone tells you your religious beliefs are wrong and there is no redemption, you either don't believe them, or do believe them and now have no incentive to convert since you lived your whole life doing things god/the gods disapprove of and you can't regain his/her/their favor.

What do you mean by "redemption" here?

 

[Max Sinister]

I thought he didn't like giving up pork. Or alcohol, so Islam was out too.

 

[Alex Zetsu]

What do you mean by "redemption" here?

I mean if the religion doesn't allow forgiveness for offending god(s), then it's pretty pointless for someone to convert since they are out o favor anyways.

 

[piratedude]

I seem to recall that a lot of people were turned off by the circumcision requirement. Hard to blame them in a pre antiseptic world

 

[GoulashComrade]

I seem to recall that a lot of people were turned off by the circumcision requirement. Hard to blame them in a pre antiseptic world

I've heard this as well in a general context, but this wouldn't have mattered to the Companions of a TTL Jewish Muhammad. It wasn't ever part of Islamic doctrine, but many Companions got circumcised when the Prophet did after the first Um'rah. In fact, the Jewish tribe of Bani Harith (contrary to popular opinon, the Muslims didn't throw out all the Jews of Madinah or even a majority of them) performed circumcisions for Muslim boys during the Rashidun Caliphate because parents trusted them more with the knife

 

[danteheadman]

I mean if the religion doesn't allow forgiveness for offending god(s), then it's pretty pointless for someone to convert since they are out o favor anyways.

But Judaism does have that. All you need is prayer. See here, and here for a comprehensive explanation of how atonement works in Judaism.

I seem to recall that a lot of people were turned off by the circumcision requirement. Hard to blame them in a pre antiseptic world

That didn't stop Islam. And Muslims circumcise their sons as a puberty rite, while Jews circumcise at 8 days. That'd be easier to impose on a population because "oh it's harmless little Timmy won't even remember."

 

[GoulashComrade]

They were, but I think since Roman times the Jews weren't trying very hard, focusing on educating their own rather than convince people of the "right" way to worship god.

Even if they were trying, it might be hard to do so when your god does things that humans would consider entrapment http://thetorah.com/taking-control-of-the-story-god-hardens-pharaohs-heart/ oh... wait Christianity has that too. Ok, I guess that's clearly not a limiting factor.

Maybe allowing redemption makes proctheyizing easier? If someone tells you your religious beliefs are wrong and there is no redemption, you either don't believe them, or do believe them and now have no incentive to convert since you lived your whole life doing things god/the gods disapprove of and you can't regain his/her/their favor.

I have to say, I don't see any reason why Judaism in the Peninsula wouldn't have allowed for the Arab conquests to continue apace. The Jewish tribes of Prophet Muhammad's Arabia absorbed many of the cultural traits of the surrounding Arabs they lived and worked with. They were just as keen to fight in tribal wars and indeed took part in one of Arabia's bloodiest tribal wars: the Aws-Khazraj wars that were ended by Muhammad's peace treaty. In fact, according to studies of trade records between Khaybar and Yathrib a little before the birth of Prophet Muhammad, after the Jewish tribe of Banu Najjar beats a subclan of the Hawazin called the Khaytama in a skirmish, the Khaytama agreed to follow Jewish customs in return for tribal patronage.


Now, scholars are unsure if they were simply "Judaized", so to speak, or the Khaytama were fully converted. In either case, though, I think it is well within the realm of possibility to have an aggessively converting and expanding Jewish Arab state formed by the Prophet (or I guess Rabbi) Muhammad. I'd be a little sad to have my faith butterflied away (as happens rather often in TLs here) but that version of Muhammad would be so wildly interesting that I'd love for someone to write it up!


Fun fact: Prophet Muhammad's great-grandmother Salma bint Amr was a Jewish noblewoman from the Banu Najjar tribe. Does that mean Jewish Muhammad is already OTL??? ::thinking_emoji::

 

[water123]

Laughs in Himyar

Really, I feel like this is a really good way to get Ethiopia even more involved in Arabia since Ethiopia is going to have an "oh crap this Jewish Arab guy like those fellas we beat around a century ago are trying to have a go at it again, maybe we should stop this once and for all" moment and if they can secure their frontiers in Africa, might launch a punitive invasion to keep Rabbi Muhammad from trying anything.

 

[danteheadman]

I have to say, I don't see any reason why Judaism in the Peninsula wouldn't have allowed for the Arab conquests to continue apace. The Jewish tribes of Prophet Muhammad's Arabia absorbed many of the cultural traits of the surrounding Arabs they lived and worked with. They were just as keen to fight in tribal wars and indeed took part in one of Arabia's bloodiest tribal wars: the Aws-Khazraj wars that were ended by Muhammad's peace treaty. In fact, according to studies of trade records between Khaybar and Yathrib a little before the birth of Prophet Muhammad, after the Jewish tribe of Banu Najjar beats a subclan of the Hawazin called the Khaytama in a skirmish, the Khaytama agreed to follow Jewish customs in return for tribal patronage.


Now, scholars are unsure if they were simply "Judaized", so to speak, or the Khaytama were fully converted. In either case, though, I think it is well within the realm of possibility to have an aggessively converting and expanding Jewish Arab state formed by the Prophet (or I guess Rabbi) Muhammad. I'd be a little sad to have my faith butterflied away (as happens rather often in TLs here) but that version of Muhammad would be so wildly interesting that I'd love for someone to write it up!


Fun fact: Prophet Muhammad's great-grandmother Salma bint Amr was a Jewish noblewoman from the Banu Najjar tribe. Does that mean Jewish Muhammad is already OTL??? ::thinking_emoji::

Ok first of all yes that does mean Muhammad was already Jewish OTL. That's wild! I had no idea!

I'm Jewish. OTL Judaism would also be butterflied away hard. My religion was fundamentally shaped by our experience of exile, expulsions, and oppression. Rabbi Muhammad's Judaism would branch off right after the codification of the Talmud and right at the beginning of the Talmudic Academies of the Gaonic era. Every OTL rabbinic commentary on the Talmud would be butterflied away and have a distinctly Islam-ish flavor. Instead of the Geonim, Muhammad would usher in an era of Jewish Caliphs.

I don't know nearly enough about early Islam or the Geonim to write this up. Maybe we (and other Jews & Muslims on the board) can collaborate?

 

[danteheadman]

Laughs in Himyar

Really, I feel like this is a really good way to get Ethiopia even more involved in Arabia since Ethiopia is going to have an "oh crap this Jewish Arab guy like those fellas we beat around a century ago are trying to have a go at it again, maybe we should stop this once and for all" moment and if they can secure their frontiers in Africa, might launch a punitive invasion to keep Rabbi Muhammad from trying anything.

I don't know anything about the latter days of the Kingdom of Axum. My knowledge of Axum is basically limited to Wikipedia pages:

Aksum remained a strong, though weakened, empire and trading power until the rise of Islam in the 7th century. However, unlike the relations between the Islamic powers and Christian Europe, Aksum (see Sahama), which provided shelter to Muhammad's early followers around 615, was on good terms with its Islamic neighbors.[20][21] Nevertheless, as early as 640, Umar ibn al-Khattāb sent a naval expedition against Adulis under Alkama bin Mujazziz, but it was eventually defeated.[22] Aksumite naval power also declined throughout the period, though in 702 Aksumite pirates were able to invade the Hejaz and occupy Jeddah. In retaliation, however, Sulayman ibn Abd al-Malik was able to take the Dahlak Archipelago from Aksum, which became Muslim from that point on, though it later recovered in the 9th century and became a vassal to the Emperor of Ethiopia.[23]

Eventually, the Islamic Empire took control of the Red Sea and most of the Nile, pushing Aksum into economic isolation. Northwest of Aksum, in modern-day Sudan, the Christian states of Makuria and Alodia lasted till the 13th century before becoming Islamic. Aksum, isolated, nonetheless still remained Christian.

After a second golden age in the early 6th century, the empire began to decline, eventually ceasing its production of coins in the early 7th century. Around this same time, the Aksumite population was forced to go farther inland to the highlands for protection, abandoning Aksum as the capital. Arab writers of the time continued to describe Ethiopia (no longer referred to as Aksum) as an extensive and powerful state, though they had lost control of most of the coast and their tributaries. While land was lost in the north, it was gained in the south; and, though Ethiopia was no longer an economic power, it still attracted Arab merchants. The capital was moved to a new location, currently unknown, though it may have been called Ku'bar or Jarmi.[8]

Local history holds that, around 960, a Jewish Queen named Yodit (Judith) or "Gudit" defeated the empire and burned its churches and literature. . . .

It looks like neither Axum nor the Islamic Empire was able to do too much damage to each other OTL. Maybe Axum would make the first move, but I don't really see the wars ending up particularly different.

Except for Gudit, that'd certainly be different. If she even leads a rebellion and wins, her kingdom of Semien would definitely have strong relations with the Jewish Caliphs. That would be interesting to see: a medieval Queen of Sheba and (Caliph) Solomon dynamic, perhaps. Christianity in Ethiopia would definitely be stamped out.

I wonder how far south and west Muhammad's Judaism would go?

 

[GoulashComrade]

Laughs in Himyar

Really, I feel like this is a really good way to get Ethiopia even more involved in Arabia since Ethiopia is going to have an "oh crap this Jewish Arab guy like those fellas we beat around a century ago are trying to have a go at it again, maybe we should stop this once and for all" moment and if they can secure their frontiers in Africa, might launch a punitive invasion to keep Rabbi Muhammad from trying anything.

I mean, they could try. The Rashidun Army could go toe to toe with an ERE on the ascendant under Caesar Heraclius and there's no reason to think that a Jewish version of that army would be any less of a devastating military force (led, of course, by observant Jew Khalid ibn al Walid .) Remember, the Axumite-Arab governor of Yemen Abraha and his war elephants got his ass handed to him by the city of Makkah alone. Muslims say it was divine intervention that stopped him, but even if you don't believe that, it's a damning indictment of Axum's ability to project power around the time of Muhammad's birth.

It looks like neither Axum nor the Islamic Empire was able to do too much damage to each other OTL. Maybe Axum would make the first move, but I don't really see the wars ending up particularly different.

I do agree that an invasion attempt of Axum would be hard to pull off, as evidenced by OTL, but if the Axumites tried to intervene in the deeper Peninsula like it did with Abraha, my guess would be that they would get thoroughly whooped.

Ok first of all yes that does mean Muhammad was already Jewish OTL. That's wild! I had no idea!

I'm Jewish. OTL Judaism would also be butterflied away hard. My religion was fundamentally shaped by our experience of exile, expulsions, and oppression. Rabbi Muhammad's Judaism would branch off right after the codification of the Talmud and right at the beginning of the Talmudic Academies of the Gaonic era. Every OTL rabbinic commentary on the Talmud would be butterflied away and have a distinctly Islam-ish flavor. Instead of the Geonim, Muhammad would usher in an era of Jewish Caliphs.

History is weird, mate! People are often unaware of how closely tied Prophet Muhammad's early community of Companions were to the Peninsula's Jewish tribes. The orientalist and scholar of Islam Theodore Noldeke once pointed out that for the holy book of a religion intended to be a radically reforming Abrahamism, the Qur'an seems to go out of its way to avoid attacking the Torah and the Bible even when criticizing Christians and Jews. Another interesting case is that of Rabbi Mukhayriq, the Rabbi who led his a section of his clan to fight alongside Muhammad and the Muslims against the Quraysh at Uhud. Mukhayriq dies in that battle and Muhammad ordered that he be buried as a martyr. An Arab Muslim objected to the burying of Rabbi Mukhayriq with the Muslim dead, to which the Prophet angrily replied "Do not speak if you are ignorant! Mukhayriq's soul sits at the right side of God's throne! Instead of insulting your fallen brother, pray that you recieve a speck of the honor the Almighty has bestowed on him in Paradise!" Although this account is usually used to prove that the righteous non-Muslim dead go to heaven in Islam, a minority of Abbasid-era scholars even believed that since Muhammad (as far as records could prove) only did this for martyred Jews, only Jews and Muslims went immediately to Islamic Paradise.

I don't know nearly enough about early Islam or the Geonim to write this up. Maybe we (and other Jews & Muslims on the board) can collaborate?

I'll gladly offer my services here. Early Islamic history is one of the very few periods of history I have any level of expertise in, so I could help you on that side of things

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Would his form of Judaism essentially be a form of Arabian Karaites?

 

[piratedude]

Would i be wrong in thinking that this Rabbi Mohammed, andor his successors, would rebuild the temple?

 

[sloreck]

As far as rebuilding the Temple, would that still be something to happen with the return of the Messiah or would it be undertaken to help his arrival...