WI Japanese Use Synthesized Fuel With Chinese Coal?

This is from the same source as the information in posts 14, 15 and 16.
Section 3 The Coal Industry
Japan had no resources of anthracite, or high-grade coking coal required for steel production, but had reasonable resources of medium- to low-grade bituminous coal. The principal coalfields were in Hokkaido and north-west Kyushu, but there were a few mines in western Honshu producing some fifteen per cent of the total domestic production. In general the main industrial centres in east and central Honshu were not sited close to the coalfields. Normally coal was carried from Hokkaido and Kyushu by sea ports in Honshu and, in 1941, almost the whole of the home output of coal was transported in this way. To economise in coastal shipping and to avoid air raids, a railway tunnel was opened in 1942 under the Shimonoseki Strait, linking the railway system on Honshu with that of Kyushu. A railway ferry was also put into operation across the Tsugaru Strait between Hakodate in Hokkaido and Aomori in Honshu.

In 1937 the coal industry was given a target of seventy million tons a year, which necessitated the greatest possible exploitation of existing mines, the opening up of new mines and a drive to increase production. Large number of uneconomic mines were therefore brought into production, and output rose from forty-five million tons to fifty-seven million tons in 1940, but thereafter fell gradually to forty-nine million tons in 1944 and to some thirty-three million tons in 1945, largely because the army conscripted many of the regular miners who had to be replaced by Koreans, Chinese and prisoners-or-war. By 1945 about two-thirds of the original labour force of trained miners remained and, though the number of men employed in the mines had risen from 300,000 in 1940 to some 420,000 in 1945, output per man had fallen from 173 to 119 tons a year. Production was also affected by difficulties in obtaining mining equipment and by the consequent lowering of the standard of maintenance.

Consumption, which was 51 millions in 1937, rose to 66.5 millions in 1940. During the war years it gradually declined to 52 million tons in 1944, but from June of that year if fell sharply, dropping from 4.5 million tons in that month to 3.5 million in January 1945 and to 2.25 millions in July 1945. This drop occurred despite supplies for the army and navy being maintained at the same level and those for the railways and shipbuilding industry being increased.

Until 1945 consumption always exceeded domestic production. The balance was imported, as long as it was possible, from north China, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, Indo-China and Formosa. In 1940 imports were some ten millions but they fell to about three millions in 1943. In the first quarter of 1944 monthly imports averaged 416,000 tons, but by the third quarter they had fallen to 190,000 and in the last quarter to 102,000 tons. Thereafter they declined rapidly and ceased altogether in June 1945. Most of the imports were of high-grade copal or coking coal. The fall in imports therefore hit those industries depending on high-grade coal, particularly steel. The railways and coal-burning shipping were able to get their requirements from home production throughout the war. Except for coking coal (for which see The Steel Industry), Japan was never in difficulties over this essential commodity, since the fall in consumption balanced the fall in home production and imports.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
The source quote above : it tells only about domestic japanes coal production, as I read it and mentions only very low imports from China/Asia mainland (10 million tons , only 1/6 of consumption and only 1/4 to 1/5 of domestic production).

I wonder why Japan wasn't able to extract more out of their 'possesions' : North China, Inner Mongolia, esp. Manchuria, which are even today BIG producers of coal. They had quite some time (Manchukuo 'founded' 1932) before .... 'troubles' with the US to improve coal output.
 
The source quote above : it tells only about domestic japanes coal production, as I read it and mentions only very low imports from China/Asia mainland (10 million tons , only 1/6 of consumption and only 1/4 to 1/5 of domestic production).

I wonder why Japan wasn't able to extract more out of their 'possesions' : North China, Inner Mongolia, esp. Manchuria, which are even today BIG producers of coal. They had quite some time (Manchukuo 'founded' 1932) before .... 'troubles' with the US to improve coal output.
There is this paragraph on the section about the Japanese steel industry
Coking Coal

Before the war almost all Japan’s high-grade coking coal was imported from north China. Imports reached a peak of four million tons in 1942 and thereafter, owing to the shipping shortage, declined. In 1944 imports were down to thirty-five per cent, an in the first quarter of 1945 to fourteen per cent of the 1942 total; thereafter they rapidly fell away to nothing. An attempt was made in 1944 to route the north China coking coal by rail to Korean ports, but the limited capacity of the railways proved just as serious an impediment as the shipping shortage. Imports form deposits in north east Manchuria, which could be brought by the short sea route from Korean ports across the Sea of Japan, were increased from 5,000 tons in 1943 to 124,000 tons in 1944, but this amount did little to offset the steep decline in imports from China and, during 1944, Japan had to fall back on the extremely poor quality coking coal which could be obtained from coal mines in Hokkaido.
So its the capacity of the railways and the merchant fleet, which someone else wrote earlier in the thread.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Strange ...

Wiki tells about 10.000.000 tons + produced by Manchukuo alone in 1930 already, combined with 'other areas' (I assume northern China and Inner Mongolia and/or Korea) about 20.000.000 in 1941.

With the 'Wehrstaat' (National Defense State) theories of von der Goltz and the 'Reichswehr' of the 20ies quite popular among japanese army leaders I wonder why they didn't improve economical infrastructure (railways, port facilities) long before the fourties. They had the time of a decade - at least - to do so.

For the question of the OP :
The Bergius-method of coal liquefaction was patented 1913, with a first industrial scale plant working 1927.
The Fischer-Tropsch method (needing much lower pressur than the Bergius-method) was patented 1925.
Both methods work well with 'low grade' coal not usable for coke for steel.

Therefore : the knowledge how to do it was available in the beginning 30ies. And there would have been plenty of time to establish a synthetic fuel industry in the occupied regions of China and Manchuria - esp. with the low cost chinese slave-workforce.

...

Could be the foundation of an interesting POD ...
 
Therefore : the knowledge how to do it was available in the beginning 30ies. And there would have been plenty of time to establish a synthetic fuel industry in the occupied regions of China and Manchuria - esp. with the low cost chinese slave-workforce.

Problem is infrastructure. Will need to build those refineries, and slave labor isn't the bottleneck, but metallurgy, and trained workforce.
Even once built, it's far more expensive per gallon than any other petroleum on the planet.

And not even the Germans got their synth-oil program to get decent gasoline(above 40 octane) from lignite and bituminous coal till 1943, but diesel was possible from the start.

US Crude was a Dollar a Barrel in 1939
 
Strange ...

Wiki tells about 10.000.000 tons + produced by Manchukuo alone in 1930 already, combined with 'other areas' (I assume northern China and Inner Mongolia and/or Korea) about 20.000.000 in 1941.

With the 'Wehrstaat' (National Defense State) theories of von der Goltz and the 'Reichswehr' of the 20ies quite popular among japanese army leaders I wonder why they didn't improve economical infrastructure (railways, port facilities) long before the fourties. They had the time of a decade - at least - to do so.

For the question of the OP :
The Bergius-method of coal liquefaction was patented 1913, with a first industrial scale plant working 1927.
The Fischer-Tropsch method (needing much lower pressur than the Bergius-method) was patented 1925.
Both methods work well with 'low grade' coal not usable for coke for steel.

Therefore : the knowledge how to do it was available in the beginning 30ies. And there would have been plenty of time to establish a synthetic fuel industry in the occupied regions of China and Manchuria - esp. with the low cost chinese slave-workforce.

...

Could be the foundation of an interesting POD ...
If you can find the extra steel for the synthetic oil plants, extra railway locomotives, rolling stock and railway track. Japan's steel industry was running at full capacity so it would be necessary to build less of something else. It could have been imported from America and in the 1930s many American steel companies would have been eager for the work, but it would have to be paid for in Dollars.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
@marathag
Trained workforce to build these plants : can be hired already in 1931 to 1933 from germany - only a question of prices paid to them individually.

Same can apply for workers to run these refineries and train their successors.
If set up these plant need less workers than one would thought. Main workforce needed is to get the raw material : coal.

About the 'prices' of the stuff, when produced : a political don't have to ask for economical profits.
The question for political/military leaders is : having fuel at all, whatever the price or having no fuel at all for a decent price.

About the 'grade' of fuel obtained I am mostly with you. Though the main 'bottleneck' for the germans was the production of the necessary additives.
(Is there a little typo ? Do you really mean "40 octane" ? As I recall it was in the beginning about 78 to 80 octane, later - without additives - up to 84 to 88 octane.)

However, as you said Diesel and low grade fuel are possible early : just the stuff needed for ships.
 
not known for making very realistic decisions?

they converted some ships FROM coal to oil during 1930's, could they have gone other way? (a coal-oil slurry?)
 
Problem is infrastructure. Will need to build those refineries, and slave labour isn't the bottleneck, but metallurgy, and trained workforce.
Even once built, it's far more expensive per gallon than any other petroleum on the planet.

And not even the Germans got their synth-oil program to get decent gasoline(above 40 octane) from lignite and bituminous coal till 1943, but diesel was possible from the start.

US Crude was a Dollar a Barrel in 1939
Semi-ninjad!

I agree about the expense, but it would save the Japanese foreign currency, which they could use to buy other things they needed.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
If you can find the extra steel for the synthetic oil plants, extra railway locomotives, rolling stock and railway track. Japan's steel industry was running at full capacity so it would be necessary to build less of something else. It could have been imported from America and in the 1930s many American steel companies would have been eager for the work, but it would have to be paid for in Dollars.
Maybe as a more ... long term investment project from 1932/33 onwards ? Planned for 'full operation' from 1939/1940 onwards ?
 
PS

But looking at the expense it seems to be involved it seems to me that they would be better off using the money to expand their steel industry and merchant marines.
 
PPS and as there is oil in Manchuria. Have it discovered in the 1920s or 1930s. There has been a thread on that in the last 18 months. I think the problems were the technology to discover it and/or the technology to extract it did not exist.
 
my understanding most if not all of coal from Sakhalin is coking coal, and quite a bit as they are still mining today. although the oil development there is all (IIRC) offshore.

of course it would require very early POD to have control of Sakhalin.
 
About the 'grade' of fuel obtained I am mostly with you. Though the main 'bottleneck' for the germans was the production of the necessary additives.
(Is there a little typo ? Do you really mean "40 octane" ? As I recall it was in the beginning about 78 to 80 octane, later - without additives - up to 84 to 88 octane.)

Yep 40.

Good enough for a low horsepower Beetle and little else. UK Pool Petrol during the War was little better, at 67, though in the '20s it ranged in three grades, 45, 40-50 and 60+
Germans were able to increase Octane by hydrogenation, that would get you over 60 Octane, but that took time to build/upgrade the plants to do that
 
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