WI Japan send troops to the western front.

Political impact aside, might this have reduced the cultural fear of "The Yellow Peril" that was so prevalent at the time? If Englishmen (and the men of the Dominions), Frenchmen, and Americans had fought side-by-side with Japanese troops in the trenches of France and Flanders, could it have altered public perceptions in any significant way?

Depends on the scale of Japanese involvement really.
 
Oh nobody is suggesting they didn't do anything - of course they did. But at Versailles the chat was all about death tolls. Wilson was effectively told to shove it because he only spoke for 50k dead. Japan got the scraps from the table because at the highest estimate they contributed 4k lives to the cause.
The British Empire laid down nearly a million lives. France over a million. Italy about half a million.


Japans government shot it self in the foot with the 21 Demands. Politcally & economically this was not a trivial event & had repercussions for decades. PM Okuma Shigenobu tossed any claim to 'fairness' when he approved issuing the 21 Demands. It also deep running suspicion of Japan withing the British government of 1915-1919
 
Japans government shot it self in the foot with the 21 Demands. Politcally & economically this was not a trivial event & had repercussions for decades. PM Okuma Shigenobu tossed any claim to 'fairness' when he approved issuing the 21 Demands. It also deep running suspicion of Japan withing the British government of 1915-1919
The post WW1 treaties weren't about being fair.
 
Precisely. & after the the ill thought over reach of the 21 Demands Te Brits were not interested in fairness for Japan either.

Exactly, the notes between Washington and Whitehall after the Chinese ambassador released notes on the Japanese demands was basically, "the fuck is this shit being pulled on us?"
 
That was the biggest thing, but they were also upset that they didn't get all of the former German provinces in the North Pacific which they wanted.

By "North Pacific" you mean Manchuria? Because there isn't a whole lot of anything else up there outside of North America and Russia. But yeah, there was much in the Central Pacific that they may have wanted and didn't get.

If they had sent a sizable number of troops to the Western Front and they'd fought (and died) alongside British/French troops, it might have increased their chances of getting the racial equality clause (though British Australia and India were against it).

The various empires of Europe needed the Myth of the Invincible White Man to maintain control over their native populations. The sight of independently equipped, trained, and led first class armies there were members of the colored peoples (1) of the world would have been a socially shattering event in Asia, Africa, the Ottoman Empire, and even Western Europe. (2)

The sight of Japanese troops in France slaughtering attacking German troops at Verdun, at great cost to themselves, could have particularly explosive consequences should Yellow Peril hysteria reach France. Imagine wounded Imperial Japanese officers coming back from the Western Front being denied entrance into the Cafe de la Paix!:eek::mad::mad::mad: The Japanese people took such effrontery VERY seriously. I can't imagine a worse case of culture clash than this.:(

1) Sorry for the use of the antiquated term "colored people", but that was the most POLITE term in use at the time.:eek:

2) As it was OTL during the Fall of Singapore. And the Japanese went to great lengths to rub it in by humiliating the British, Canadian, and ANZAC troops that surrendered there, and in Burma, Malaya, and Hong Kong.

The Japanese also felt snubbed in the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922, where the set ratio of ships was UK 5: US 5: Japan 3

That was actually not snubbing. As the UK (Atlantic/Indian/Mediterranean) and US (Atlantic/Pacific) were both Two (Two and a half, really) Ocean Powers they needed bigger navies. The reward Japan got for having a fleet 60% that of either of the Anglo Powers was in the agreement by Britain and the US that no British or American bases in the Pacific would be fortified. The exceptions being Singapore (half a fortress), Corregidor, Oahu, the Panama Canal, and the US West Coast. Japan was specifically allowed to fortify their bases wherever and however much they might like to.

Which explains why and how the Japanese had such an easy time overrunning so much of the Pacific in 1941-42, while the Americans and Australians had to fight for every inch of heavily defended Japanese soil in the long slog back.

Besides, the Japanese cheated like sons of bitches in terms of honoring their treaty tonnage limits. And to a degree that would have made the Soviets drool.:p That's why 10 of the USN's 18 heavy cruisers (CA's) at the start of WWII were sunk in battle by war's end. They had the range, speed, gunnery, and size of their opposing IJN CA's, but they were over-sized destroyers compared to their heavily armored Japanese counterparts. And Japan had the most powerful torpedoes in the world. By war's end, most of the old "treaty cruisers" had been sent to the North Pacific out of harm's way, like the old and fragile CV Ranger was kept in the Atlantic.

When they WERE put in harm's way, you got Savo Island and the sinking of the Indianapolis.:eek:

True, it's CERTAINLY far easier. However, they're likely to get far less "credit" there, even if they're fighting along Brits, Anzacs, etc and they do as much fighting an dying.

Agreed. Not only the normal level of nationalism causing people to blow their own nation's contributions out of proportion, while belittling (or ignoring) the role of others; But also the racial component as well. I doubt seriously that newspapers in the wide flung Empires would scarcely even mention the Japanese.

Now, if they were able/willing to get involved early enough, perhaps they could have sent a sizable force to Gallipoli and actually taken it. The Anzacs were amazingly brave, but their leadership (especially on day 1 ashore) was horribly inconsistent, with some leaders simply stopping, even though their objectives were wide open in front of them.

The command of the British troops was hardly any better, if not in fact even worse. Command elan was not to be seen.:(

The Japanese would have had to DoW the Central Powers on a Pearl Harbor level of mobilization to be able to sortie a sizable force and get them all the way to Gallipoli IMHO.

The Japanese DID have some good experience with combine Ground-Naval assaults from the Russo-Japanese War.

Agreed

If they were the "saviors of Gallipoli", they'd get some serious street cred from that.

I doubt it.:( More likely they'd be treated in Anglo-French newspapers (with the approval of their governments) as little more than Imperial Native troops under the command of their White Betters.:mad: With every opportunity to suggest that Japanese troops were under the command of Japanese-speaking British officers!:rolleyes:

Silly? Lawrence of Arabia to the Nth degree.

The dying bit would not make that much difference. The Chinese did that then got well screwed at Versailles.

I doubt it would be politically possible for even the Imperial Japanese Army to get away with sending a million sons into the trenches of France, never to return. And if they did, and weren't given the whole of China and two-thirds of the Pacific Ocean as a Japanese Protectorate (never mind equal footing on naval disarmament), then World War Two starts at Versailles:eek:

Political impact aside, might this have reduced the cultural fear of "The Yellow Peril" that was so prevalent at the time? If Englishmen (and the men of the Dominions), Frenchmen, and Americans had fought side-by-side with Japanese troops in the trenches of France and Flanders, could it have altered public perceptions in any significant way?

Did 180,000 African-Americans fighting in Federal uniform do anything for race relations beyond the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments? Were feelings significantly changed? When the White troops of the Union Army went home, by and large when they took off their uniforms they put their old beliefs about race back on.:(

The Japanese troops might have impressed the locals with their courage and personal sense of honor. But I kind of doubt they'd want to see their daughters bringing any of them home with them.:eek::mad::mad::mad:
 
Is this an upcoming TL that I'm smelling?

Now, IJN and IJA would be, in 1915, the best experienced military force on the planet to perform opposed landings and reducing coastal fortresses. How about something like this: In order to get political credit Japanese Cabinet decides to send very strong IJN squadron to Mediterranean while IJA would send a two division expeditionary force.

By January 1915 the forces are in Egypt and both their leadership and Japanese cabinet is frustrated because they are not send to die with honor. Thus, when operation to force the Dardanelles by naval force is proposed the local IJN and IJA commanders request opportunity for independent operation after Allied naval bombardment. Admiral Carden agrees, as those slant eyed irritations would bled white and would not present a problem in the future.

Some daring and outright insane manouvers later the Rising Sun sets on Constantinopole, alongside Union Jack and Tricolore of course. Japan had saved the day, Ottomans were out and Russians back in with vengeance...
 
Now, IJN and IJA would be, in 1915, the best experienced military force on the planet to perform opposed landings and reducing coastal fortresses. How about something like this: In order to get political credit Japanese Cabinet decides to send very strong IJN squadron to Mediterranean while IJA would send a two division expeditionary force.

By January 1915 the forces are in Egypt and both their leadership and Japanese cabinet is frustrated because they are not send to die with honor. Thus, when operation to force the Dardanelles by naval force is proposed the local IJN and IJA commanders request opportunity for independent operation after Allied naval bombardment. Admiral Carden agrees, as those slant eyed irritations would bled white and would not present a problem in the future.

Some daring and outright insane manouvers later the Rising Sun sets on Constantinopole, alongside Union Jack and Tricolore of course. Japan had saved the day, Ottomans were out and Russians back in with vengeance...

Planting a two division Japanese force + their allies into a city of four million Turks is not something to be done in a coup-de-main.
 
Planting a two division Japanese force + their allies into a city of four million Turks is not something to be done in a coup-de-main.

Why not? The Allies did just that in 1918-1920 in OTL. Besides, as not much blood had been spilt on each side I'm fairly sure both sides would be open to some sensible suggestions about suitable stooges... The Sultan is dead, long live the Sultan!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Constantinople
 
Why not? The Allies did just that in 1918-1920 in OTL. Besides, as not much blood had been spilt on each side I'm fairly sure both sides would be open to some sensible suggestions about suitable stooges... The Sultan is dead, long live the Sultan!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Constantinople

1918-1920 was not 1915. The latter was attempted against the best troops with the best leader the Turks had, the former was in the midst of the final collapse of the Ottoman Empire and World War One had ended.

EDIT: Oops. Please forgive the grammatical error changing the meaning of the post completely before I fixed it.
 
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1918-1920 was not 1915. The former was attempted against the best troops with the best leader the Turks had, the latter was in the midst of the final collapse of the Ottoman Empire and World War One had ended.
The best leader? You mean Von Liman Sanders? I'm not sure if taking Istanbul would knock Turkey out of the war, but it would certainly be demoralizing and I doubt that the people of the city (many of them weren't Turkish) are going to immediately rise up against the invaders in a mass revolt.

And I don't think 2 Divisions is going to turn Gallipoli into a victory.
 
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... and I doubt that the people of the city (many of them weren't Turkish) are going to immediately rise up against the invaders in a mass revolt.

Point there. Aside from the fair size Christian population the 'Ottomans' were not completely nationalisitc Turks at that point. Half the population of the region is not even going to give lip service to a revolt. The Allies largest headache might be zealous Greeks plotting the resurgance of Byzantium, or greater Hellas?

And I don't think 2 Divisions is going to turn Gallipoli into a victory.

Depends on the objective. If they can seize the entire ithmus, allowing another corps or two to follow up rapidly the Ottomans might decide to 'talk'. I cant recall the timing of this with that of the Mesopotamia expedition, or action in the Sinai, but there may be some synergy there in persuading the Ottoman government.
 
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